Rhythmic Variety

[Wooddan]

I noticed that what often separates the greats from a lot of amateur players such as myself is the rhythmic interest they are able to create. When I look back at my own playing, I see that my rhythms are often predictable and pretty simplistic. Have any of you consciously practiced or at least thought about this aspect of soloing? I think one thing that might be holding me back is that I'm a little too conscious of the rhythms I'm playing, meaning I can only play phrases when I'm aware of the exact rhythmic values I'm using (eg: I have to think to myself that I'm playing a dotted quarter tied into an eighth note in order to pull that rhythm off) whereas it seems that good players just let the rhythms come out naturally on a subconscious level. I'm hoping that by transcribing a lot of solos, I can internalize these rhythmic nuances. But quite a few people have told me that rhythm and groove is an innate gift and that if I don't have it after two years of playing that I won't ever really "get it." I'd like to believe this is not true and was wondering if any of you had any advice.

[mr. beaumont]

It's extremely important.

Listen to drummers, tap out drum solos on a tabletop.

And remember, below a certain tempo, a chain of 8th notes is about as boring as it gets, especially played too "straight."

My favorite exercise is try playing the melodic rhythm of the head, but use different notes. Or do the same with the melodic rhythm of another tune with the same form. The latter is quite challenging.

[pkirk]

you do have to practice it. Here are some things that help: foremost listen to a lot of jazz very carefully, focus on different instruments as you relisten (I assume you're asking about Jazz improv here). Second, play along with recordings and try to emulate the feel as closely as you can (Grant Green is good for this). Finally, practice with a metronome a lot and get used to listening to it as much as you listen to yourself, shift your focus from your playing to the metronome and back, and make sure you stay rhythmic. One important source of bad time/groove comes from listening too closely to yourself and not closely enough to the the entire package. Phrasing (where you start and end your musical sentence, particularly ending strong rather than tailing off) is important. A more advanced thing is placing notes before, on, and after the beat with a metronome.

Those are some things that have helped me. I think innate talent is probably part of it, as is starting with groove-based music at an early age, but the main problem in my opinion is that rhythm doenst get as much attention as it should, so we tend to practice other stuff.

[marcwhy]

Maybe the people giving you that advice are "inane," but I don't think there's much skill-based stuff that's truly innate (and how would you "prove" it, anyway?!). Lots of other discussions around here about this kind of nature-nurture argument, but like others are saying, exposure and practice are key! "Two years of playing" and "two years of practicing" are different, too.

Lots of ways to get into it -- listening, transcribing, etc. Jerry Bergonzi has a great book on rhythm; if you can find it, Mick Goodrick has a great book, too, as does Peter Erskine. I'm also a fan of real teachers, so if you have some local (or online!) player who plays like this, get some lessons!

I interviewed Don Latarski a while ago for Just Jazz Guitar magazine; his recordings/playing are pretty "groovy," and when I commented on learning that vibe, he essentially said the same thing: practice it!

(I love the feel at .52!)

[jasonc]

One thing I used to do and something I really need to get back to doing is opening up the omnibook and just looking for an interesting rhythm then playing my scales using only that rhythm. Alternately, you could pick one or two rhythms to use while improvising over a blues or a cycle.

[christianm77]

But quite a few people have told me that rhythm and groove is an innate gift and that if I don't have it after two years of playing that I won't ever really "get it." I'd like to believe this is not true and was wondering if any of you had any advice.

This is not true. Rhythm is something you have to study like anything else.

Good advice here. In general I would say, try and come up with interesting rhythmic phrases -maybe just a couple of bars. Then put notes to them. Stick to simple scales if this is hard on changes. You'd be amazed you much mileage you can get out of the blues scale if you are thinking this way.

For myself, I have found the Mike Longo DVD's useful.

[PMB]

Start simple. Take a double eighth-note figure (doo-bah!) and play that figure on the first and 4th beat of the bar, then the 3rd beat of the following bar and the 2nd of the next to imply 3/4 over 4/4. Now halve those values and play single notes every dotted quarter note.

Working with Charleston rhythms might also prove helpful. Here's a basic chord study over the 'A' section of Rhythm Changes that I put together for a Skype student last night. It contrasts an increasingly displaced Charleston figure with a stable one starting on the first beat. This exercise could easily be translated to short melodic/intervallic phrases of variable length that begin on each of those attack points:

Also, learn some heads that play with time; e.g. Rhythm Changes tunes such as "Dexterity" (Charlie Parker), "Oleo" (Sonny Rollins) and "Rhythm-A-Ning" (Thelonious Monk).

[DanielleOM]

Would all of these work in a duo situation (bass,guitar and vocal) with no drummer? Kind of wonder how the bass player knows you are changing the pattern and not just coming in late or early.


Danielle

[TH]

Working with other people, duos yes, without drummers yes, can be a really good experience. There's an understood responsibility without a drummer to know and feel the beat and working with someone else puts your ear outside your hands, if you get my meaning.
Also, from my personal experience, listening to other people, and listening to other people listening to me, made me feel rhythm in a different way. It made me hear it more vocally, with pauses, hesitations, weight on different parts of the measure and that effected my choice of melodic content. Rhythm in patterns can have lots of permutations (thoughtfully laid out in the aforementioned Goodrick book) and it really comes to life when you can feel the cadence each pattern imparts. That's really helpful when you're working with a partner.

David

[matt.guitarteacher]

Would all of these work in a duo situation (bass,guitar and vocal) with no drummer? Kind of wonder how the bass player knows you are changing the pattern and not just coming in late or early.


Danielle

A lot depends on context. Usually there's a pattern reference point. In PMB's excellent example, you'll notice several rhythmic and structural patterns at work.

It's all based on same micro rhythm, Charleston. Then, half of a larger pattern remains constant while the other changes in relationship to the original. Lastly, there's a "pattern" to the CHANGE in pattern.

All relative to the ears and playing of your bandmates of course. Sometimes you have to adjust down to the abilities of others. Sometimes they're doing the same with you. I experience both as an amateur, myself. :-)

Reg's videos on rhythmic patterns are excellent really. Maybe something about "grooves" our "rhythmic patterns" in the titles? Have to look. Can't remember...

Edit: I see David beat me to most of that. :-) Oh well. good stuff...

Which Goodrick book are we talking about?

[TH]

Which Goodrick book are we talking about?

Factorial Rhythms.

Repeat After Me will be out any day now. A look at longer phrases that can reveal different sounds when looped. A good "ear training without the counting" book too.
David

[PMB]

Not sure if you're referring to the comping rhythms Danielle but as David and Matt point out, guitarists (and pianists) often play these kind of displacements in a duo setting. They can be particularly effective against a regular, walking bass line.

[rmsmarr]

I've recently been working at playing a djembe drum and studying some patterns. I was introduced to the idea through Mike Longo's DVD the Rhythmic Nature of Jazz. I'm finding in just a short time my rhythmic feel and timing are improving. I think the nature of that drum with the different sounds accenting different divisions of the beat and focusing "soul-ly" on rhythm and getting it into your hands is very beneficially. And you find that stuff showing up in your guitar playing.

[TH]

Listen to music of other cultures. It's humbling, exhilarating and it will show you possibilities that are undreamed of in our philosophy.
David

[DanielleOM]

Not sure if you're referring to the comping rhythms Danielle but as David and Matt point out, guitarists (and pianists) often play these kind of displacements in a duo setting. They can be particularly effective against a regular, walking bass line.

PMB, Yes, I was referring to the document you posted that's marked Example 11.

I will think I will take the time to type them into Musescore. (Not sure that Musescore player is the best from a timing / feel point of view though) Probably nothing like listening to a real sound track.

[christianm77]

I just wanted to add that *you have noticed this yourself* and this is really great. There are many people who flounder around for years and wonder why they don't sound good. I had to be told to work on my time (great advice.)

You have started to listen rhythmically, and that's fantastic. Fill your head with rhythm! Listen to drums and grooves...

[eh6794]

Back around 1996, this guy taught me "its gotta slide like grease"; play all around the quarter notes.

He is a blues guy, but swings and very rhythmic and he can play jazz better than most guitarists today.

[Hep To The Jive]

One thing is also worth mentioning you gotta have a really good technique, particlarly right hand, to start digging into more rhythmic flexibility. A fellow guitarist on the NYC jazz scene, the guy I have a tons of respect for, Isaac Darche, came up with great exercises that reflect what drummers studying, rudiments type of thing. He has a column in the latest Dowbeat I believe, you can find it. Anyway, it's mostly about right hand, so you can develop a flexibility to use in your solos, effortlessly mixing 16th, triplets, 8 ths etc. When you can do that on just a few notes in any tempo, its a first step, and a foundation for all other more complex stuff.

The funny thing is when I tried it, some of it sounded like straight up Metallica riffs! But then again, everything is connected in music, more than it seems on a first glance.

[cosmic gumbo]

I work on rhythmic variety for soloing by limiting myself to only 2 or 3 pitches, so the only way to make it sound interesting is using rhythm creatively. In the jazz tradition, rhythm trumps all other aspects of the music.

[destinytot]

"ear training without the counting"

Love this!