George Benson's approach to playing chord changes

[vhollund]

Thanks. Thats the same way I feel. A reductionists view of A leaves would be you can pretty much make all the changes with two scales.

I do see it that way
But maybe we go about it in a different way ?
Instead of reducing the whole song into two chords, I'm going the other way around and using all the posible variations of two chords (functions) to play though all of the chords

[Tag101]

this whole album is just filled with amazing playing. terrible sound, but untouchable guitar work. this is from that same album:

Whats ashame is Bensons best playing is on bootlegs, and not much is available. I think the above album was originally a bootleg. Richie has all kinds of recordings filled with live Benson playing that is beyond belief. Lots with him sitting in with George, and George sitting in with him. Some live shows that were not announced in small clubs NY. I have never heard anything like them. Benson in all out burn, melt your face, destroy everyone in his path mode. Jim hall once said he was walking by a club in NY one night and heard the most amazing guitar he had ever heard coming out. Said he did not know guitar could be played like that. He had to go inside and see who this cat was......Benson.

[Tag101]

I do see it that way
But maybe we go about it in a different way ?
Instead of reducing the whole song into two chords, I'm going the other way around and using all the posible variations of two chords (functions) to play though all of the chords

Absolutely. You can use it to reduce or expand. Thats why its so nice to learn it early. You can simplify down as much as possible when you are starting out, and just keep adding new things as you go along. 30 years later and i am still adding things right from the very basic concept. Its never ending.

[vhollund]

So, the simple / reducing, is like finding subs, hybrids and seeing the changing value of one chords, over the changes ?

Kind of like transposing a phrase to the changes or ?

(That version of Oleo is insane)

[fumblefingers]

Whats ashame is Bensons best playing is on bootlegs, and not much is available. I think the above album was originally a bootleg. Richie has all kinds of recordings filled with live Benson playing that is beyond belief. Lots with him sitting in with George, and George sitting in with him. Some live shows that were not announced in small clubs NY. I have never heard anything like them. Benson in all out burn, melt your face, destroy everyone in his path mode. Jim hall once said he was walking by a club in NY one night and heard the most amazing guitar he had ever heard coming out. Said he did not know guitar could be played like that. He had to go inside and see who this cat was......Benson.

I don't doubt that a bit.

Although it's much more "inside" playing, a good listen to the original 1976 Good King Bad tells one what they need to know about Benson's rare virtuosity and creativity.

as he said, "I just want to dance on my instrument".

most of us can only dream of doing so like he did.

[Tag101]

So, the simple / reducing, is like finding subs, hybrids and seeing the changing value of one chords, over the changes ?

Kind of like transposing a phrase to the changes or ?

(That version of Oleo is insane)

Its just getting rid of what you really do not need when you dont want it, or adding to whats already there if you want it. Like my original post. I-VI-II-V-I is a hell of a lot harder to play on when you are starting out than I-V-I, and they both are really the same thing, or can be played the same way. I and VI are home, II and V are away from home, wanting to come back. How much you want to come home = the more outside stuff you play. When you get better and can hear your way through that, you can start making the VI a dom bringing your way back home to the -II chord, then the V bringing you back home to the IMaj. When you can hear that clearly, you can add the III chord in making it a V-I to the VI, then make the II a V-1 to the V (A fave of Benson) and then the V back to the I maj. Then you start playing the b5 sub, and all the related chords to that V chord. If we are in C, and you play a b5 sub for G7, its Db7 of course, but for that Db7 you can play Cb Maj7 (another fave of georges), you can play Ab-7,or F-7b5. Thats just the tip of the iceberg. Make it simpler, or expand it as much as you want.

[christianm77]

Ok, see
Interesting
Thanks for clearing that up Christian
Well then no I don't think that way
I think of the altered 4s as voicings of V7s
And i only think of them as SD when they are so
I use 3 basic chords SD D T

I find that 6251s will mostly be played in two ways
All dominants or
Vl7 ii V7 l

This last one being the most diatonically transposable
The first one being the 'dirty' bluesy one
What you are doing, in my world, is exploring voicings subs and hybrids of those same chords

It's possible to view what I'm doing in many ways. There is also a chord/scale interpretation, for example...

In fact, I still think of three (ish) chords when I play... Like I say the T/D thing is something I am working into my playing. I really like the sounds it opens up, but I have not been consistent about applying it. There are many progressions in my everyday playing life that it makes a lot simpler (or at least unifies with other progressions I know well.)

We haven't really touched on what happens in the first case 6 2 5 1 - cycle dominant progressions. I believe it has always been the practice to build a seperate scale on each - be it pentatonic or dominant. These do not 'reduce.'

Or progressions such as bVI7 I.

I view this as 'outside' the remit of the theory and just deal with these things in other way. I'd be interested to know if Tag has anything to add...

[christianm77]

For one, Benson said he does, and many others he played with looked at it the same way.

Do you know who else?

[christianm77]

I do see it that way
But maybe we go about it in a different way ?
Instead of reducing the whole song into two chords, I'm going the other way around and using all the posible variations of two chords (functions) to play though all of the chords

So you reduce and you rebuild. This is really all I'm on about. The specifics of exactly how I view it is farily irrelevant, because it's only a subset of the thing Tag was talking about to begin with. Different people home in on different things.

The key thing to realise is that is a structural basis, that you can redecorate it as you wish, and (perhaps most importantly) that no way of looking at it is complete in itself.... Also that the way of looking at it is not the end in itself, which is in fact to play music effortlessly.

If whatever it is doesn't help you do that, it should be chucked out. But someone else might find it useful....

[Tag101]

It's possible to view what I'm doing in many ways. There is also a chord/scale interpretation, for example...

In fact, I still think of three (ish) chords when I play... Like I say the T/D thing is something I am working into my playing. I really like the sounds it opens up, but I have not been consistent about applying it. There are many progressions in my everyday playing life that it makes a lot simpler (or at least unifies with other progressions I know well.)

We haven't really touched on what happens in the first case 6 2 5 1 - cycle dominant progressions. I believe it has always been the practice to build a seperate scale on each - be it pentatonic or dominant. These do not 'reduce.'

Or progressions such as bVI7 I.

I view this as 'outside' the remit of the theory and just deal with these things in other way. I'd be interested to know if Tag has anything to add...

For the I-7 to bVI7-1 (Angel eyes?) Look at the relative chords to give you fresh ideas. In D minor, try D- to F-, or D- to Abmaj7 (#11) or just look at it as D- to D-7b5. One I LOVE to use on that, and I find really easy to get great sounds with (i am giving away my secret ammo) is Fmaj7 for the D-, and then just change to F- (maj7) for the Bb7. See how easy!!! GREAT sounds! Try it.


By the way. When I was taking with richie and learning new tunes, he would have me look at them first and see the connections, just like above. When first learning a tune, it was to break it down into its simplest form and play through it a while like that. Then start adding more and more in when you became comfortable. He never had to do it, (as far as i could tell) as it was all completely digested. I mean you could name any song you could think of, and he would play it on the spot, in any key, melody, bass lines, and improv. I would bring him in songs I wanted to learn, and he would transcribe them by ear. "Hit an E on your guitar for me"... then away he would go, calling out the changes as the song played while I wrote them down. It must be nice to get to that level.

[vintagelove]

While this is definitely a good/valid approach, I would be mindful when teaching a beginner to intermediate student to make sure they are also seeing the root movement from chord to chord. Once they get comfortable with the common root movements, they could absolutely go to town with this method.

Another cool thing you can do with this is anticipate the upcoming tonic, so over your G7, you can end your phrase with an Am pent bluesy thing leading back into the C. Always a cool sound.

[vhollund]

I use inversions/subs all the time
I've just never thought of it as 'reductionism' but thats not really important what one calls it
Building vocabulairy is good.

What you are describing, is what I've learned to categorise as hybrids/ subs/ inversions /superimpositions/ or voicings
(Voicings is the only practical word for constructs that doesn't really fall into major/minor category, like some clusters)
But don't give away your secret ammo Tag, I'm not sure all people here deserve to have everything served on a platter

Now I've GOT to ask !
Who the * is Richie ??
He sounds like a great teacher

(Edit)
Found him :

http://www.richiehartjazz.com/site/i....biography.php

》1974 became a pivotal year for his musical growth. At this time, he met Jazz guitar legend, George Benson, and became a private student of his. Studying with George, changed his whole concept of Jazz as well as all other music.

[ecj]

this whole album is just filled with amazing playing. terrible sound, but untouchable guitar work. this is from that same album:

Oh my god.

Everyone who is posting on this thread should listen to that now.

[destinytot]

Oh my god.

Everyone who is posting on this thread should listen to that now.

I've actually been listening to that and Witchcraft two or three times a day for the past few months on the bus to and from work.

[Reg]

So the V I or simple view of playing isn't just the literal V I etc... You have targets.... which is like your One chord... and you create a V chords which wants to resolve to that One Chord.

For example in ATTYA you could take the first 6 bars and make them the V chord all resolving to Bars 7 and 8, the Cmaj chord. Then take the next 8 bars and do the same thing bars 9 - 14 all resolve to bars Gmaj, bars 15 and 16.

The next 8 bars are two shorter versions... A-7 D7 to Gmaj again, and then F#-7 B7alt to Emaj

Then a similar approach with last 12 bars... actually going to Ab.

So what your playing actually somewhat follows the form of the tune right Two 8 bars phrases of an "A", a "B" section that used the same organization but breaks the pattern then last "A" section which again breaks the pattern of the original "A"s and creates a end of tune.

Then you go micro and use the same approach within your bigger V I patterns, you still need to play the changes or some version of the implied changes...it's just how you use the changes organizationally.... just because a chord is a dom7th chord doesn't mean it has to have Dominant function.... same with all chords.

There is no real simple approach to playing through tunes where you can play and not really know what's going on...at least when playing Jazz, the changes are there because their part of the tune. You play simple.... that's what your going to sound like.

[Tag101]

I've actually been listening to that and Witchcraft two or three times a day for the past few months on the bus to and from work.

I have been listening to that cassette/CD for at least 20 years! Had it as a bootleg before it was officially released. I know if you have not heard a lot of other GB bootlegs, it sounds amazing, (and it is), but trust me, thats George on cruise control. Not his most amazing stuff by a long shot. The guy is beyond belief.

[Tag101]

So the V I or simple view of playing isn't just the literal V I etc... You have targets.... which is like your One chord... and you create a V chords which wants to resolve to that One Chord.

For example in ATTYA you could take the first 6 bars and make them the V chord all resolving to Bars 7 and 8, the Cmaj chord. Then take the next 8 bars and do the same thing bars 9 - 14 all resolve to bars Gmaj, bars 15 and 16.

The next 8 bars are two shorter versions... A-7 D7 to Gmaj again, and then F#-7 B7alt to Emaj

Then a similar approach with last 12 bars... actually going to Ab.

The G and E maj 7 parts are right, but I dont think the other parts are, or I am not following you. You cant really resolve a V chord to another V chord. And I am trying it in my head, but dont think you can make the first 6 bars of ATTYA one dom area. The very first chord (F-) is actually heard as a tonic chord for the most part. (VI of AbMaj7. I III and VI chords are tonic) At least thats the way I play it for starters. Then you can start playing it as a V to the Bb minor chord, which is usually resolved first, even if you want to play that Bb-7 as a Bb-7#9 going to the Eb7 chord. You really cant group them all together as one dominant area as far as I can tell.

[vhollund]

In the solos you can go Doms if you are 'naughty' enough
While playing the theme you can evt go Vl7#9 ii V7 l

Naughty stuff
Sonny Rollins & Coleman Hawkins - All The Things …:

Transcription of Lee Konitz's solo on "All The Th…:

[Tag101]

In the solos you can go Doms if you are 'naughty' enough
While playing the theme you can evt go Vl7#9 ii V7 l

Naughty stuff
Sonny Rollins & Coleman Hawkins - All The Things …:

Transcription of Lee Konitz's solo on "All The Th…:

1963 and those guys sound better than almost everyone today. The feel they had is just untouchable. Thanks for posting that!!!

[Reg]

The G and E maj 7 parts are right, but I dont think the other parts are, or I am not following you. You cant really resolve a V chord to another V chord. And I am trying it in my head, but dont think you can make the first 6 bars of ATTYA one dom area. The very first chord (F-) is actually heard as a tonic chord for the most part. (VI of AbMaj7. I III and VI chords are tonic) At least thats the way I play it for starters. Then you can start playing it as a V to the Bb minor chord, which is usually resolved first, even if you want to play that Bb-7 as a Bb-7#9 going to the Eb7 chord. You really cant group them all together as one dominant area as far as I can tell.

Yea you might be not following... I didn't explain ...

There are two concepts of dom to tonic tension resolve etc... going on. If you think of tonic as the target, (tonal target),
and the the other chordal movement as the Dom. Somewhat like chord patterns can be thought of as one tonal area... II V's, I IV's, I V's, I VI II V's... there are many. Your almost using the Dom. Tonic approach applied spatially, or more of a Form usage. The smaller literal V I relationships within, in this example the 1st 6 bars, became micro relationships. They can still be going on but are part of a larger Dom to tonic relationship... more related to playing through a tune with organization based on Form... and how you create and develop relationships with in the sections of the form have a smaller life of their own, but function within a larger Form, which is using the Dom. Tonic relationship for performance.

I believe this approach creates a more natural harmonic flow when playing through tunes... obviously based on the results of have more organization when playing.

Why can't you resolve a V chord to another V chord, besides the obvious blues harmonic relationships. there are many guidelines for resolution.

I'll try and put up a vid of example of what I'm talking about.... maybe make more sense.. or maybe not.

[Reg]

Try thinking of ATTYA as not in Ab or F-....

Think of the Ab and it's relative Min F- as bVI ... so the 1st four bars are all more of a sub dom. or in this Dominant approach to Tonic, a prep for Dom... or just Dominant... then the Db becomes bII or sub type of Dominant function to the Tonic ... Cmaj..... if your having trouble hearing use a few blue notes to teach your ears or break them out of one way of hearing.

So five bars of (sub) Dominant to Dominant bar 6 to Tonic... "C". After you try this a little stop on the "C". now play Abmaj7 or F-.... does it sound like a tonic...

So any way same thing next 8 bars... only Gmaj becomes the tonic.

When you get to bars 17 through 24... 17 -20 are Gmaj. and really F#-7b5 to B7 is generally just a typical approach to the relative Min. but instead of Emin. we get Emaj7... either through parallel method or modal interchange etc...

Same approach with last 12 bars. Now you might even think of the tune as really in Gmaj. with the now Cmaj section just a standard IV chord type of function area... and again Abmaj and F- just being part of that (sub) Dominant function area.


If nothing else... In general...guitarist might open ears to being able to approach a tune differently.... it get pretty boring from standard harmonic approach. I'll still post something... I'm somewhat lazy.

[destinytot]

The OP 'speaks to my condition'; it's pretty clear to me which rung of the ladder I'm most comfortable on!

[ecj]

I have been listening to that cassette/CD for at least 20 years! Had it as a bootleg before it was officially released. I know if you have not heard a lot of other GB bootlegs, it sounds amazing, (and it is), but trust me, thats George on cruise control. Not his most amazing stuff by a long shot. The guy is beyond belief.

Where should I look for the most amazing stuff? Would be really interested in hearing it.

He's got to be one of the most talented musicians in history.

[destinytot]

Some faves:

and this little gem (credited to Larry Carlton on my vinyl copy):

[Tag101]

Try thinking of ATTYA as not in Ab or F-....

Think of the Ab and it's relative Min F- as bVI ... so the 1st four bars are all more of a sub dom. or in this Dominant approach to Tonic, a prep for Dom... or just Dominant... then the Db becomes bII or sub type of Dominant function to the Tonic ... Cmaj..... if your having trouble hearing use a few blue notes to teach your ears or break them out of one way of hearing.

So five bars of (sub) Dominant to Dominant bar 6 to Tonic... "C". After you try this a little stop on the "C". now play Abmaj7 or F-.... does it sound like a tonic...

So any way same thing next 8 bars... only Gmaj becomes the tonic.

When you get to bars 17 through 24... 17 -20 are Gmaj. and really F#-7b5 to B7 is generally just a typical approach to the relative Min. but instead of Emin. we get Emaj7... either through parallel method or modal interchange etc...

Same approach with last 12 bars. Now you might even think of the tune as really in Gmaj. with the now Cmaj section just a standard IV chord type of function area... and again Abmaj and F- just being part of that (sub) Dominant function area.


If nothing else... In general...guitarist might open ears to being able to approach a tune differently.... it get pretty boring from standard harmonic approach. I'll still post something... I'm somewhat lazy.

Man, there are a lot of ways to approach a tune! I see what you are saying above, but to my ears and playing it sounds a bit forced. I am sure that would change with a few hours of it. If you change the Eb7 to Eb-7 it sounds a bit better to my ears, and then the Abmaj7 to a dom, but the melody note is G on the Ebchord, so I like the dom7 sound to the Gmaj 7. With Dom tonic though, once you are hearing everything, you can play a Dom area over a tonic, or vice versa of course. The strength of the line is the only thing that matters at that point. Its getting there that all of this helps us with!