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Hey if you thought he was good, just imagine how great he would have been with the aid of band in a box, true bypass pedals, and chord scale theory ;-)
Originally Posted by Tag101
I agree with that. Those two guys are at the absolute top of the heap IMO. Going one step farther, I think Django may have been #1. At that level, it comes down to flow of ideas, and as great as GBs is, listening to Django and reading what S.Grappelli and others who played with him had to say, he seemed to be able to play for hours on a tune without making a mistake or repeating himself.
He talked about how they use to have after hour competitions with players of all instruments improvising on a given tune. When someone made a mistake or or started repeating themselves, they had to step out. Grappelli said Django would be the last man standing every time, and said something along the lines of he could play a blues all day without running out of ideas! 
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06-06-2015 06:54 AM
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Guys, guys. I love Django and George but Charlie Christian can't be left out here. He was a far bigger influence on the next generation of jazz guitarists (especially Barney Kessel and Herb Ellis) than Django was.
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christianm77 - i totally agree that the effect is legato - the amazing thing is that the method for achieving it is very staccato indeed (i.e. picking almost everything - letting every note sound separately from every other).
i think you can generate a legato feel better through this hyper-picking method than any other way (so. g.b. can flow and sound fluid even more effectively than j.h. using all his clever left hand techniques).
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..... So no one has anything more they want to add to the "Dom vs Tonic" part of this thread?
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Is there some part of that you feel hasn't been addressed yet? Originally Posted by princeplanet
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It's just that I feel there is more to be said about the actual approach itself as opposed to how GB or others may have used it. Like ways of practicing reducing things to T and D, filing lines under T or D, or even both. T/D use in Blues as well as non functional harmony etc.
Even a more in depth discussion of it's shortcomings. One of the posters in the original thread had many issues, it'd be interesting to see if many here agree with those concerns.
And here's another tie in to another thread I started about pents over Dom- f I may quote myself -
"The reason I bring this up is that I'm teaching a few basic concepts to a nephew. He knows his rock/blues scales and seems too lazy to want to learn anything outside of that! I explained to him that you can't play most jazz and treat everything like a giant mode, you have to at least shift between Tonic and Dominant sounds, even in songs that don't change key. So when he tried to play his usual pentatonics but starting from different positions, well, you can imagine it didn't really sound like Jazz!
.So, as a stepping stone, I suggested he "modify" the scales he does know to deal with any Dom class chord. Suddenly he was handling ii - V7, as well as IV7, II7 and bVII.... in other words, he could work out how to sound ok against most standard tunes, just by changing one note in the shapes he already knows. Of course he has to work out where to move things, where to start, and how to join it all together, but it's simple enough so he can "hear" it via trial and error.
Which got me thinking, why isn't this the first thing I got shown when I traversed the wide divide between Rock and Jazz? From there you add the tasty passing notes, point out the 3rds and 7ths, a few patterns, a few licks and you're already sounding like Jazz. All the other stuff can come after that...... no?"
So yeah, it seems to me that simple approaches like breaking things down to T and D, as well as encouraging things like simple pents for T and slightly modified pents for D can be great ways to help rock guys "crossover" to the dark side
That way they're making the changes after just a few days, instead of after a few years like the way I learned (I can't be alone there...).
Last edited by princeplanet; 06-07-2015 at 05:07 PM.
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
I agree CC was a bigger influence on the next and future players, (even today!), but I think its because he had come on at the same time bebop was, and thats the direction he went. Django was swing, and that era was coming to an end. If I remember correctly, he had stopped playing for a while to paint. He was just starting up again and moving in that direction with things like Blues for Ike, when he died so young. (42-43 I believe)
I know this may be blasphemy, but I dont think CC had anywhere near the imagination, technique, or flow of ideas that Django did. (Ducking and running away!)
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I do not think moving or adjusting pent rock licks around are the right way to go. IMO, they are being played over a chord, and not through it, which is a huge difference. The time spent trying to adjust rock licks would be much better spent learning the most simple, cliche bop lines that out line the chords. I went that route for a while, and it got me no where. (Which does not mean it will not work for others of course!) If someone wants to play jazz, you have to learn the language. The tonic/dom thing is whats going on BEHIND whats being played, and shows you how and why the melodic lines work. It does not show you the lines themselves, which you HAVE to learn. There is no way to do that other than to listen, transcribe, and copy. Its why in my origonal post 10 years ago I said TRANSCRIBE,TRANSCRIBE,TRANSCRIBE. Originally Posted by princeplanet
It's just that I feel there is more to be said about the actual approach itself as opposed to how GB or others may have used it. Like ways of practicing reducing things to T and D, filing lines under T or D, or even both. T/D use in Blues as well as non functional harmony etc.
Even a more in depth discussion of it's shortcomings. One of the posters in the original thread had many issues, it'd be interesting to see if many here agree with those concerns.
And here's another tie in to another thread I started about pents over Dom- f I may quote myself -
"The reason I bring this up is that I'm teaching a few basic concepts to a nephew. He knows his rock/blues scales and seems too lazy to want to learn anything outside of that! I explained to him that you can't play most jazz and treat everything like a giant mode, you have to at least shift between Tonic and Dominant sounds, even in songs that don't change key. So when he tried to play his usual pentatonics but starting from different positions, well, you can imagine it didn't really sound like Jazz!.So, as a stepping stone, I suggested he "modify" the scales he does know to deal with any Dom class chord. Suddenly he was handling ii - V7, as well as IV7, II7 and bVII.... in other words, he could work out how to sound ok against most standard tunes, just by changing one note in the shapes he already knows. Of course he has to work out where to move things, where to start, and how to join it all together, but it's simple enough so he can "hear" it via trial and error.
Which got me thinking, why isn't this the first thing I got shown when I traversed the wide divide between Rock and Jazz? From there you add the tasty passing notes, point out the 3rds and 7ths, a few patterns, a few licks and you're already sounding like Jazz. All the other stuff can come after that...... no?"
So yeah, it seems to me that simple approaches like breaking things down to T and D, as well as encouraging things like simple pents for T and slightly modified pents for D can be great ways to help rock guys "crossover" to the dark side That way they're making the changes after just a few days, instead of after a few years like the way I learned (I can't be alone there...).
That being said, if you have any issues with, or see any shortcomings of T/D, I would love to discuss, as *i* feel it has no shortcomings.
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Well, Charlie died very young. He was only with Goodman for, what, 2-3 years? Shame he died so young. We'll never know 'what might have been.' Originally Posted by Tag101
This bit from a jam at Minton's seems quite inventive to me. (This is called "Swing to Bop" but the head that lead to this was "Topsy")
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Feel my fiery wrath! Flee my thunderbolts of rage! Originally Posted by Tag101
I agree CC was a bigger influence on the next and future players, (even today!), but I think its because he had come on at the same time bebop was, and thats the direction he went. Django was swing, and that era was coming to an end. If I remember correctly, he had stopped playing for a while to paint. He was just starting up again and moving in that direction with things like Blues for Ike, when he died so young. (42-43 I believe) I know this may be blasphemy, but I dont think CC had anywhere near the imagination, technique, or flow of ideas that Django did. (Ducking and running away!)
Actually I agree, sort of, that said. CC's technqiue was basic compared to Django's, his vocabulary limited.
It doesn't matter.
CC could swing *much* harder than Django.
Ducking and running for cover myself, that means Django will *never* quite be the complete jazz guitarist for me. CC (and Wes) will always be greater to my mind.
Aside from his genius for time feel (Tristano described CC's feel as the best of any jazz musician - think about that for a minute) CC's improvisational gift lay in spinning out limited ideas into compelling extended structures. He was an improvisor of rhythm, dynamics and energy...
This skill was actually not recorded on his Goodman sides, and would have simply passed into legend if not for the Minton's tapes. If you haven't heard it, here is the best jazz guitar playing of all time (well it's in the top 5):
No 'chops', no cheap tricks, no empty display, just one of the most compelling few minutes of music I have ever heard.
Apples and oranges I guess.... (Although CC was no less a swing guitarist than Django. And both embraced the future... Problem was Django sounding like ass on electric guitar.... ;-))Last edited by christianm77; 06-08-2015 at 07:07 PM.
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I missed this. ;-) Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Oscar Aleman makes interesting listening in contrast to Django - superficially similar (both 30s/40s swing players who recorded extensively on Maccaferris in string band line ups.)
In fact aside from the surface, the playing is very different. While I don't get off on (or agree with) the whole 'Aleman was better than Django' controversy courting, there is some truth to me in the statement that he swings more than Reinhardt, but this is really getting into another thread...Last edited by christianm77; 06-08-2015 at 07:19 PM.
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They are all great players, no doubt. This is one of my favorite jazz solos ever, by Django, or anyone. No real flash in this one, just total melodic genius. I dont think he could have written out a better solo. He develops all these cool little ideas, running them through the changes, but somehow all are related to the melody, and each other. It tells a perfect story from the beginning to end. I close my eyes and listen, and the goosebumps cover my entire body. Listen to him work the idea from 56 seconds to 1:10, and then another from 2:03-2:24. Thats hearing it in your head before it happens! Instantaneous composition. Perfection.
Last edited by Tag101; 06-08-2015 at 08:57 PM.
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Haha! - No, I don't mean play your Rock licks! (But that's exactly what a rock guy tries first!). If you modify a maj pent by replacing 1 with 2, then you won't be playing any rock licks, it's another world of sound altogether... Originally Posted by Tag101
I do not think moving or adjusting pent rock licks around are the right way to go. IMO, they are being played over a chord, and not through it, which is a huge difference. The time spent trying to adjust rock licks would be much better spent learning the most simple, cliche bop lines that out line the chords. I went that route for a while, and it got me no where. (Which does not mean it will not work for others of course!) If someone wants to play jazz, you have to learn the language. The tonic/dom thing is whats going on BEHIND whats being played, and shows you how and why the melodic lines work. It does not show you the lines themselves, which you HAVE to learn. There is no way to do that other than to listen, transcribe, and copy. Its why in my origonal post 10 years ago I said TRANSCRIBE,TRANSCRIBE,TRANSCRIBE. That being said, if you have any issues with, or see any shortcomings of T/D, I would love to discuss, as *i* feel it has no shortcomings.
When I listen to early guys like Lester, they're playing LOTS of pentatonic material. Bird comes from Lester, and we all come from Bird. Pentatonics, in the Swing style (not blues/rock!), encourage lyricism. You start to sprinkle in the chromatic concepts, and maybe you inherit Bop the way they all did in the 40's, via those swingin' pentatonic lines, some that go all the way back to Louis...
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Didn't really wanna partake in this "Fan Boi" part of the discussion - but felt I could not let this go unchallenged! Originally Posted by christianm77
A mob called Legacy , in 2006 put out an album called "The art of the jazz guitar" - it's on Spotify. It's a collection of late 40's electric Django and it is indeed smoking hot bop infused playing in a variety of environments. His tone is unbelievable in some of them, raw and dirty, some tracks with slap back echo that recalls Rockabilly, but obviously pre dates it.
Yes, I thought I'd heard his electric stuff too (and also went 'meh') until I heard this :
https://itunes.apple.com/az/album/th...ar/id122098082
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
Didn't really wanna partake in this "Fan Boi" part of the discussion - but felt I could not let this go unchallenged!
A mob called Legacy , in 2006 put out an album called "The art of the jazz guitar" - it's on Spotify. It's a collection of late 40's electric Django and it is indeed smoking hot bop infused playing in a variety of environments. His tone is unbelievable in some of them, raw and dirty, some tracks with slap back echo that recalls Rockabilly, but obviously pre dates it.
Yes, I thought I'd heard his electric stuff too (and also went 'meh') until I heard this :
https://itunes.apple.com/az/album/th...ar/id122098082
Absolutely. Djangos electric playing is some of my favorite by him.
Last edited by Tag101; 06-09-2015 at 01:03 AM.
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Well each to their own.
TBH, I was having a bit of a troll, in retaliation to the criticism of my man, Mr CC.
But I do find Django's electric playing rather unsatisfying when contrasted with his acoustic playing or with Charlie Christian's.
Charlie Christian for me gets right to it, which you need on electric. I'm pretty sure CC's style would not have worked on acoustic.
But that's just what I am listening for. I am for example more of a fan of Grant Green and Jim Hall than Joe Pass and George Benson, but as I can't play as well as any of them (!), criticism is really to be taken with a large pinch of salt, and a bit of knockabout good humour ;-) It's just a matter of personal tasteLast edited by christianm77; 06-09-2015 at 08:33 AM.
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This sounds like Willie Thomas, a trumpet player now in his 80s who was taught about "pentatonic pairs" by Wynton Kelly when they were in the Army. There's more about this at Willie's site (Jazz Everyone). Originally Posted by princeplanet
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Had a brief look, but not long enough to figure out how the "pairs" relates to his Pentatonic system. Can you sum it up in a sentence? Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Yes! Originally Posted by princeplanet
Django played lots of pentatonics too, far more than modern Gypsy jazz methods would have you believe :-)
To my ears, major pentatonic with blue notes (b3 and b7) almost defines the sound of Lester Young's playing. Charlie Christian took this sound and ran with it too (and you obviously hear it everywhere in blues and rock'n'roll - that of course was influenced directly and indirectly by the music of Lester and CC....)
One thing people rarely talk about is the way you can really play the blues scale through many common swing and bebop progressions, so for example:
I7 --> I major, V major, I minor for the blues sound
IV7, #ivo7 --> I minor esp. with b5
V7 --> I minor or major
Over a ii-V-I for example you have the option to go minor - major or stay minor pent. Dressing up the major with the blue notes is one way of generating cadential motion. Chromatic movement between pentatonic notes - 1 2 #2,3, 3 4 #4 5, 5 #5 6 and back, chromatics down to b7 (1-7-b7) esp. when moving to a IV chord, and so on, to taste.
Charlie Parker inherited this and you can here it very clearly in a lot of his melodies - Confirmation is a classic example. Check out what he does on Bb7, for example!
I learned this from listening to BB King, Peter Green and Clapton, early on. I think a lot of this was inherited from the common heritage of jazz and blues. For example, had things played out differently, maybe T-Bone would have played with Benny. Who knows...
So there you have it I guess, T/D system
EDIT: there is a difference between rock and jazz - but it's not necessarily note choice. You should be able to phrase blues licks in a jazz way (like wot GB does:-))
TL;DR it's the blooooz stoopid.Last edited by christianm77; 06-09-2015 at 10:33 AM.
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Probably not. Originally Posted by princeplanet
First, though, "pentatonic pairs" are two notes a whole step apart. The C major scale contains three such pairs: D and E, G and A, and C and D. Start with the pairs 5&6 (G and A) and 1&2 (C&D) and you can re-create many Swing-era heads. There's a lot of music in those few notes. When you follow the pairs through standard changes (-Willie likes to use "Perdido" as an example) the pairs form a strong melodic chain. Then you learn to embellish them. The pentatonic pairs are a skeleton.
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How interesting! Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
It might be a bit cheeky to ask - but when you say 'follow through standard changes' do you mean build them on different chords?Last edited by christianm77; 06-09-2015 at 11:53 AM.
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what about F&G and A&B ? Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Yes. This is a starting point, not an ending one. I think a few other people here know much more about Willie's system than I do. Originally Posted by christianm77
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Well, B is the major seventh of C. It is a whole step away from A but only a half-step away from C. Originally Posted by pingu
As for F&G, yes, they are a whole step apart but F is just a half-step away from E.
If you just play around with the fifth and sixth and the root and second, you will hear the basis of a lot of great jazz riffs. They're flexible because they don't have a third or seventh. It's interesting that some blues heads have the same notes over the I, IV, and V chords ("C Jam Blues" is perhaps the most obvious example.)
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