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The most of the time I get lost on drummers take in trading 4s. Especially when I'm the audience. Sometimes, if I know the tune, I can follow by playing changes in my head, but then I can not listen to the music properly.
I think it's due I'm too much accustomed to pop rock, no matter how hard I try to count in my head, each time I hear the kick, or crash, it throws me back to 1, something like that. When there are 2 instruments playing together I have no problem, usually, because I can sublime and extrapolate the basic beat. But with drums only ... I'm as good as completely lost.
Anybody experiencing the same?
How do you cope with it? Count silently, tap your foot, sing the melody, play changes mentally ...?
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04-07-2015 03:49 AM
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Me too. I'm interested in others thoughts as well. I certainly don't have an answer. Drummers are working on a whole different level of complexity with poly or cross rhythms etc. Normal beat references for us mere mortals kind of go out the window on drum breaks.
I try to resist the urge to get conspiratorial, listening to some of that stuff. "Did that pianist really just count/feel all of that, or is he just guessing/approximating and the drummer covers for him?".
Nah....
:-)Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 04-07-2015 at 07:38 AM.
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I'll join the choir. I have found it very helpful to sit by a drumset and play very basic jazz rhythms with a steady ride and hi-hat slowly. Other than that I guess it's about going to the jam sessions, concerts etc and see how the trading works. Listen to drum solos at home
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Hi Vladan, welcome to the club on getting lost. So, yes I count silently, tap my foot, keep track of the melody. A drummer largely is counting on the other musicians to keep their place in the music.
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Most the time can just feel 4 or 8 bars, but if drummer is playing a polyrhythm or like Jim Keltner who likes to see how far behind the beat he can get then drop back in, then I have to count.
I would say learning to play some drums is helpful to understand working with them. Some will say even just learning to play just a ride cymbal and some of the main patterns they play. Main musicians can play drums to not to point of doing a gig, but can hold there own in a jam. Chris Potter is one and I know there are others.
Also just talk to a friend who plays drums and they can explain things to listen for.
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It's good when you know you're not alone.
The only way for me is to follow changes and melody in my head, that way I sometimes make through, but obviously I have to know the tune to be able to do so.
With unknown tune, I try to count "dry", for a while it's good, but if the tempo is fast enough at one point I missinterpret triplets for swung 1/8ths, or the other way arround and as already mentioned, when the crash cymbal's hit for me it's a signal to start from 1, so if it don't match my count I start questioning if I counted right up to the point, too much thinking ... the result being ... I'm lost.
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Doc Bop, you say ask a drummer friend ...
well, one friend of mine, very good drummer, I mean excellent in rock, rockabilly and blues, tours internationally arround the region with couple of bands, plays sophisticated "acoustic" stuff with some guitarists and pianists, he's on TV, in clubs, ... total of more than 150 paid gigs per year, once, just out of nowhere he confessed to have no idea what Jazz drummers are doing and he could not follow their solos. He's the best one I know. I'm out of options in thaat regard.
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I often have trouble with this too. Try listening to recordings a lot. I think you have to count, but at the same time, get a feel for where the drummer is implying the beat is. I think I get it right about 50% of the time.
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Originally Posted by Vladan
Time to meet more drummers.
But are you talking about soloing or Trading 4's that two different things. One is kind of okay it your spot light go for it, trading four is a short statement and typically all involved are playing off others ideas, or throw a new idea into the pot. You have the groove going so just mentally keep it going, chant, growl, whatever just keep feeling the time and ignore what the drummer is playing if you need to so you can stay focus on the groove/time.
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How do you keep count when everybody else is playing? If you have a good internal clock, the changes and all that don't make any difference, nor does an accent on an off beat.
I played with a drummer who's solos FELT like they were going to fall apart, but he was dead on all of the time.
Try playing with a metronome and move the click to different beats, even to the point where the click in on the last 16th of the bar. It's hard work but you WILL develop the ability to feel the time no matter what's going on with dynamics and accents.
Then go to a few metric dazzlers for practice.
And clap along with this:
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1. More I think of it, maybe I should have titled the thread "Counting the drums solo". Indded, it is more likely to maintain through 4 bars than through 32, or more, but sometimes it may be just as hard.
2. Re: Above 2 Metheny clips. Odd rythms and weird patterns are not that much of a problem. I could count 9 x 1/4 in the first one and find the paattern in the 2nd. Clapping with it, at the tempo, well, not really, I'd haave to practice for a while.
I do have a problem with the 2nd one, though. I'm aware it actually starts with a rest, aware from the context and how it develops, but I can't help but hearing it starting with a clap, so if I'd have to play that initial "one note melody", I'd have to develop my own count with the last bar truncated for 1 x 1/8, or to start playing from the last 1/8 in the bar, as I count it, and wait for the flow of music to bring me to proper count. I hope you could understand what I mean and the problem I have with it.
Which brings me to the solution (regarding Metheny song. I think not so much regarding drums solos and trading 4s) ....
3. Pacticing!!! I'm thankfull for all the advice, though I'm not that type. Too lazy and to stupid to actuallyy go for it. I'm just curious about the ways it's being done at the actual moment, where and what did the preparation lead to. Trained and prepared, what do you do, if anything, in real time, at the moment when it is haappening? Or you just "feel it" all the way?
4. Being in the band, I believe it is somewhat easier to find the place. Presumaably you know each other, have rehearsed for a while, know the tune you play, ... have agreed on audio and visuaal cues, plus all the spontaneous ones ...
I was mostly refering to counting out of "cold", from the listeners position. Just listen and be aware of the exact position?.
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Some good answers here, but I think people have left out one important detail: it may not actually always be your fault! The drummer's sense of time could leave something to be desired. Just because he's a drummer doesn't mean he'll have perfect time, you know.
Something to consider, if you ask me
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I get that melody going in my head. Man, it always comes back to that, doesn't it?
Another thing I was taught was if you come in early, own it and do it assertively and trust the band to catch it. The mistakes that really sound like mistakes are the tentative ones...
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Well in terms of trading, I think it's something you just have to really internalize. Fortunately I'm at a point where I don't need to think about the changes or melody much during trading, I simply feel the four-eight bars going by. But that will just come after having traded a lot, and with different drummers. Some drummers play a 4-8 bar solo very straight ahead and obvious. But as someone said above I've played with some drummers who sound like they're going off the rails, but they aren't. One drummer in particular sort of wants the band to get lost, and if they don't then he takes note of who the really hard musicians are.
As for counting over a 32 bar form or something similar. I personally think about changes. I will finger the chords with my left hand without strumming/plucking with my right. It just helps me keep track!
Good luck! This is a challenging aspect of playing to manage! Its something that can always be improved upon!
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Don't count! Get a metronome/ drum machine that gives you a click every two/ four/ eight measures and then get comfortable with the space. At least when I play in a combo or large group setting, people like my time feel (finally, been sludging away for long enough) and my comping. If you feel the two four and eight measures, then your phrasing and comping will really swing. Hell, forget the changes and think of where the music cadences rhythmically. It's helped me understand how Bill Evans gets those tasty anticipations when he comps. Or go over to Muse-eek dot com and pick up some time studies. I'd recommend Doing Time with 32 vol. 1 and vol. 2
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Need to work on your rhythm if you can't follow solos. As someone said, drummers work on more complex rhythms than melodic instrumentalists, but I think what separates the higher level people from people still working on it is the fact that professionals have stronger time and rhythm. For the time being, you should try to keep the melody in your head, but you don't enjoy the music that way, as you said. Play with people more, even play duo with drummers and work on trading a lot.
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Dancing helps. Moving to the grooving. Metronome practice a la Flyin' Brian, messing with what that click means, making it the "and" of 2, making it signify the 3rd beat, etcetera, etcetera. Drive down the highway with the radio on singing along, switch the radio off and carry on singing, switch the radio back on after a while and see how far away from pulse you are singing. Try again, do it better. Dancing still helps.
When I visit my song-writing collaborator on campus where he teaches, it is immediately obvious who his students are as they are all clicking as they walk by, metronomes in their pockets, getting into being physical to the groove in all things. So walking is good. As well as dancing. 'Specially if you combine the two and do your own drum solo in your head as you roll along. Get that feeling into your bones.
Some odd young drummists may be more competitive than co-operative and think that being overly tricky or blurringly obscure so that others are challenged more than helped is a very clever thing to do. Bollocks to those guys.
In performance I notice I'm generally doing two things while bar-trading is going on: paying attention to the groovy cool lithe dancer moving around inside my fat frame, and singing along my own melodic/rhythmic dialogue with what the drummer is doing. That helps keep me alive to and in the moment. I think.
So many drummers: such little time.
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Something like this ...
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Or this record below...
I actually compare it with poetry... when there are some connective words common in daily speach are ommmited and some people get it anyway and some not...
It's not that it's bad or good... it's just they have they same feel of language as the author...
Same thing here - general rythmic pattern is meant but not played.. to catch through actual playing musicians should be really close in musical hearing
I had a friend - more funky style drummer - with more strict pattern - when I wanted to play in more interactive trio format - I put on this record below for him.. but he could not catch it... because it 'did not repeat'
I think it is more about getting into the groove... not really about counting...
And also personal rythm feeling... personal tendencies..
I always try to break the repeated rythmyc patterns..
I love this feel of flowing ever-changing rythnmic line as in a record below...
Sometimes I tap some rythmic lines on the table mechanically- it sounds like some sporadic taps that are actually weak syncopated beats and lines...
it's almost impossible to get from 'outside' - so mostly people think that it's not organized at all... b
ut once or twice it happened that people heard the groove behind it...
so in a group it should be really good interaction to do so.. I mean personally...
it may just a question of different feel of rythm between people in a group...
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Cool stuff.
Love that tune, especially when Miles plays it. Try to snap your fingers every 2 measures of the tune. Once you start doing it, you won't have to count. Some cool things will become apparent such as:
1. A fragment of the melodic phrase will come to an end
2. Many melodic lines will end after two measures (start the snapping right at the beginning of the melody) of they will work towards the end of the phrase.
3. Chords rhythmically cadence at the end of the two phrases (I would love to do a video on this, cool stuff)
4. The drummer will accent hits and end phrases at the end of the 2 measures.
On ballads, feeling two measures is easier than 4 or 8 measures. Once you get to feeling 8 measures without counting, you are really feeling form (without having to hum the melody in your head -- I want to get out of that habit, it's great to base your solos on the melody, but it shouldn't be a crutch to keep your place).
I am still working on getting my 2's perfect, it's getting rid of that counting habit that is so hard. But it is really freeing once you get in the groove. Than listening to drummers like Tony Williams and Elvin Jones becomes both exciting and logical. Food for thought.
By the way, this works for most music as well. Try it on an Ed Sheeran tune (my high school students love him), a Mozart piece, BB King, or a Tribe Called Quest tune. Let me know what you notice after doing it for a couple of weeks.
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