To practice being creative limit yourself

**docbop** · 03-31-2015, 11:23 PM

This is something Joe Diorio talks about all the time. Joe would say limit to yourself like select two non-adjacent strings and solo using those two strings only. That's how you practice being creative.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=694179123982475

TH · 04-01-2015, 04:06 AM

I think of this as transcending the given. I've found it's much more difficult to look at the things given to me by teachers, traditions or concensus and extract the essence, the personal from it...to own it. I know for many, it's much easier to take the givens as they are and accept and staunchly defend them.
Yes docbop, being creative does take practice!
David

**Jonah** · 04-01-2015, 05:56 AM

Not creative I would say

That's how you practice being inventive and smart with limited technical resources... which probably could be good also.

practice creativeness by limiting would be.. for example stylistic or musical concept limitation like 'improvize only in blues style' or 'imitate Coleman Hawkins style in soloing' etc.

**jordanklemons** · 04-10-2015, 10:35 PM

Limitation and constriction is one of the best teachers in my opinion. I often think about the Stravinsky quote, "That which diminishes constraint, diminishes strength."

To me it's not even JUST about during practice. It should be present when we're composing, performing, improvising...everything. Doing it during practice is what will allow us to naturally constrict while performing or composing. Not necessarily something as physical and idiomatic to the instrument as two non-adjacent strings (thought that could be a thing)...but for me it's more about music limitation. Sticking to the first idea that I come up with and seeing how much juice I can squeeze out of it, limiting a composition to a given motif, etc. To me these things really bring an intense sense of intention that can't be faked. Anyone can learn to play scales, arpeggios, and "the right notes"...but to be able to command those scales, arpeggios, and right notes into a story and express something that really connects our personal, human experience to the music...that's the deep stuff. All the great did and DO it. And it takes practice, for sure. It's not a mistake or an accident.

**MarkRhodes** · 04-11-2015, 09:44 AM

I think there's a lot to this idea. Sonny Rollins seems to have done a lot of work this way too. His "Blue Seven" is a classic of motivic playing.

**ecj** · 04-11-2015, 01:17 PM

Man, I don't know. I'm not a huge fan of these weird guitar tricks to "limit" yourself. Who but a guitarist cares about playing on two strings? I've never heard of a sax player taping off a couple keys or a trumpet player trying to solo with only one valve.

Why not go for something more based in actual music, instead? Like, I will solo through this entire tune only playing the 9, 11, and 13 of each chord.

**docbop** · 04-11-2015, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by ecj

Man, I don't know. I'm not a huge fan of these weird guitar tricks to "limit" yourself. Who but a guitarist cares about playing on two strings? I've never heard of a sax player taping off a couple keys or a trumpet player trying to solo with only one valve.

Why not go for something more based in actual music, instead? Like, I will solo through this entire tune only playing the 9, 11, and 13 of each chord.

Painters do it by limiting their palette to two colors, and just using extensions is a way to do it. Joe Diorio is who I got it from and works for him. I've gotten a lot out of its. Can't remember the name but one of the famous 20th century composer used this type of thing to teacher composition, he would start drastic and limit student to one note so they had to explore rhythm and orchestration to create interest. The teacher I had started use with using triads only. After you limit yourself then when you get all your resources back the possibilities seem overwhelming. So get hung up on the two strings, pick a limitation and challenge yourself.

**jordanklemons** · 04-11-2015, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by ecj

Man, I don't know. I'm not a huge fan of these weird guitar tricks to "limit" yourself. Who but a guitarist cares about playing on two strings? I've never heard of a sax player taping off a couple keys or a trumpet player trying to solo with only one valve.

Why not go for something more based in actual music, instead? Like, I will solo through this entire tune only playing the 9, 11, and 13 of each chord.

Thats td a form of limitation too. It can be physical regarding the instrument or it can be musical. Still a limitation. Stefon Harris told me when he was playing vibraphone with Joe Henderson, he would put a notecard on his music stand with 5 different ideas - limitations - that he would consciously utilize. Right before a solo he'd look at the card and pick one of the ideas and run with it...see if he could stick to it for the entire solo. Things like playing an entire solo all within one octave, or starting in the lowest register of the vibes at the beginning of the solo, slowly working his way up, and ending the solo in the upper register. Different games and limitations to force him outside his comfort zone, outside of his go to vocabulary, so that he was forcing himself to step up his game and really be fully immersed in his intention to make something happen. I've heard a lot of great players talk about this...guitarists and non-guitarists.

**mr. beaumont** · 04-11-2015, 02:27 PM

Different strokes, i suppose...i find exercises like these to be very musical.

And they ARE exercises. Try the 2 string thing for just 15 minutes on a tune you know well, then play it all the way through and allow yourself all six...you might be surprised at what creeps in.

**targuit** · 04-11-2015, 03:58 PM

I think exercises limiting oneself to one or two strings are a bit silly if you have a good grasp of the fret board. On the other hand, I have a pet theory that relates to how many fine guitarists started with four string instrument or banjo. One way to exercise creativity but also just voice leading is to limit oneself initially to the top four strings, indulging yourself once in a while with the fifth string use. It reminds me of Ed Bickert style playing, and is at the very least useful for examining the chord progression with the notion of carrying the melody as the highest note in an arrangement.

All such limiting exercises are to stimulate creativity in a way.

**ecj** · 04-11-2015, 04:18 PM

I guess I don't get the point. Limitations are great, but the guitar is already hard enough to handle physically. Why create more weird physical hurdles?

It would be more like a painter limiting him/herself to using one kind of brush. The notes are the colors, and the instrument is the way that we paint them. I guess maybe it's possible that painters do stuff like that, but the fact that we don't know if they do or not is probably telling.

**MarkRhodes** · 04-11-2015, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by ecj

I guess I don't get the point. Limitations are great, but the guitar is already hard enough to handle physically. Why create more weird physical hurdles?

It would be more like a painter limiting him/herself to using one kind of brush. The notes are the colors, and the instrument is the way that we paint them. I guess maybe it's possible that painters do stuff like that, but the fact that we don't know if they do or not is probably telling.

Well, it doesn't have to be physical. You might take a chorus of something with the overarching thought of 'leave space.' Or play the head in octaves this time around, or after a particularly melodic turn, turn to dissonant voicings with a wholly different feel. Or, 'hey, how about a simple melodic line for a change?'

As for painters, some have done arresting work with just two colors, as have photographers using black and white film.

**docbop** · 04-11-2015, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by ecj

I guess I don't get the point. Limitations are great, but the guitar is already hard enough to handle physically. Why create more weird physical hurdles?

It would be more like a painter limiting him/herself to using one kind of brush. The notes are the colors, and the instrument is the way that we paint them. I guess maybe it's possible that painters do stuff like that, but the fact that we don't know if they do or not is probably telling.

Some of the great painter go through there Blue period or other limitation and their paintings can be found. I don't understand how you can not see the challenging yourself would force you to think different to explore new territory, but no big deal we all gotta do what we feel is right for us.

**mr. beaumont** · 04-11-2015, 06:14 PM

Ecj, i think you're approaching it from a "what will i get to USE" from this exercise, when you might like it more if you approached it from "how will this force me to think outside of my box."

it's a bit "wax on, wax off" y'know?

I'll say it again, try it for 15 minutes. It's a great exercise.

**ecj** · 04-11-2015, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by docbop

Some of the great painter go through there Blue period or other limitation and their paintings can be found. I don't understand how you can not see the challenging yourself would force you to think different to explore new territory, but no big deal we all gotta do what we feel is right for us.

I'm saying that limitation exercises are great, but I don't know why you'd make the limitation instrument-based. Why not something musical?

I've tried the "solo on one string" and a lot of other stuff over the years. I guess I just don't get it. I know a lot of great players advocate this stuff, so I'm sure some folks are getting a lot out of it.

**mr. beaumont** · 04-11-2015, 08:27 PM

I fail to see how it's not "musical."

**docbop** · 04-11-2015, 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I fail to see how it's not "musical."

Exactly it's all about being musical just using less resources. Diorio would do similar things to us in the class on playing heads more musically so we'd find ways to get a more vocal like quality to lines by forcing us out of familiar patterns. Same reason many musicians compose on an instrument that isn't there main instrument so to keep from familiar pattern and use and fresh palette. Just ways to make yourself think outside the box.

**Larry Feldman** · 04-11-2015, 08:56 PM

John Abercrombie talks about soloing on 1 or 2 strings as an exercise and also for phrasing.

**MarkRhodes** · 04-11-2015, 10:11 PM

It's interesting that many see playing jazz guitar----with anything approaching a classic tone / setup---as limiting in a way they will not have. What, no distortion? No delay?

Playing solo guitar---as opposed to playing with a group---is limiting and you can't do some things you could with a band swinging behind you. Plus you have to do things--such as keep the beat going so that the audience feels it---that you could let someone else handle if there were someone else playing with you, but... ;o)

There's a sign in the music store I go to that reads, "Guitar solos may not exceed sixteen bars." I'm a guitarist and I think that's funny. This was a real constraint in the early days of recording: extended jams were not permitted. You had one chorus, maybe two, and that was it. You had to make the most of it.