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It's often taken as a truism that great jazz musicians improvise, but I've heard a lot of anecdotes about great jazz players repeating solos verbatim live. This is often considered a bad thing - but it's interesting to come across an article suggesting that this is a venerable and honourable part of the tradition.
It's also bearing in mind I think that word improvisation is often used as a catch all term for music that isn't written down. Jazz is an oral tradition, so the overlap between improvisation and composition is mutable and poorly documented from my experience, anyway.
The point he makes about the fertile ground there is in between the two extremes - making a variation on a classic solo, is really interesting.
Here's the article, with a link to the source, an article by Charles Mingus.
?Oh, play that thing!? ? the use of transcribed solos in the jazz tradition | The Key Bop ChroniclesLast edited by christianm77; 03-25-2015 at 07:31 PM.
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03-25-2015 07:21 PM
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When I hear a musician play someone elses work and it is note for note especially a complex solo, the first thing I think is wow they nailed it. Its an appreciation of something that I am not able to do very well. However, I also appreciate the magic of a live perfromance when original artists kicks it up a notch and really stretches their chops.
I notice non playing friends connect better with music when it sounds like what they expect which is usually the recorded version played note for note. To each his own I guess.
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Fascinating article. Thanks for posting it. Want to ruminate before saying more.
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This is an interesting phenomenon. I think the brain is wired to react favorably to what it has heard before and which is recognizable. Which is why non-player audiences always appreciate familiar tunes. But I've noticed that some touring rock bands play tunes exactly as they were recorded in response to what their audiences want - (to the point where Steely Dan would advertise that on a particular night's concert, they would be playing a particular album from beginning to end and did so pretty much note for note - and one of the back up singers would pretend to put a record on a turntable at the start of the first tune.) At some point though, the novelty of seeing someone live recreate a recorded piece of music wears thin.
In jazz, I can appreciate both the recreation of a great known solo and the spontaneous improvisation of a new one. I mostly prefer the latter though, especially when players pick up on ideas they've heard in their band members solos and then go off in new directions in their own solos.
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I don't know playing a solo over exactly to me is no longer improvisation, it's now performing a piece of music. Now musicians will reference other pieces of solo their own or others as part their solo that is improv. Like Jaco at heart he was an arranger and composer so for some of his solos he performed a lot he worked on like an arranger. He would re-arrange and re-write pieces working them out on piano then used them at gigs. To me that is still improv because parts mixed with improv. Things like SuperSax who play arrangement of Bird solos or Tony Rizzi guitar ensemble who did the same with Charlie Christen solos that isn't improv to me that is an arrangement and great musicans to read and play those arrangement. I've read that the Bach and Beethoven were excellent improviser and would improvise in concert at times. Since we don't have recording to know it, but supposedly there is some written improv examples/idea of theirs that now get performed and some notes. Composition and improv are one in the same just one is done in real time and other written and refined.
For those not familiar with Tony Rizzi here's a YT in the style of Tony I couldn't find any YT of the actual band there used to be some. This give an idea but Tony's band played up to tempo Christen's solos with five guitarists.
Last edited by docbop; 03-26-2015 at 01:21 PM.
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[QUOTE=docbop;514731]I don't know playing a solo over exactly to me is no longer improvisation./QUOTE]
But no one claimed it was. I think this is why the music is called "jazz" rather than "improvisation."
Improvising is great. Playing something great because you love it, learned it, and are feeling it can be great too. And sometimes there's a mix: you may start a chorus with some great opening. (JC Stylles posted a video the other day off Lee Morgan playing "Moanin'" with Oscar Peterson. Lee started his solo off much like the recorded version. It's a great way to start a solo.) Then you try something that pops into your head, develop that, maybe do something 'handy' to make a tricky transition, and then try something else. So a full chorus would be a mix of things. You might say, "something old, something new, something borrowed, something blue...."
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I like the history of it, and it seems to have a bit of a competitive edge that always underlies jazz.."look, I can do that too...I can do that better."
It is a truth that great jazz players improvise, but it's not all they do...I mean, they play tunes...they quote, occasionally do something like this. Improv is still the heart and soul...
Remember too, swing music was POP music. I could definitely see why a leader might tell a soloist "play it like the record."
Some of this may still have a spontaneous nature too...you see somebody play someone else's solo--were they planning all of this ahead?...or was their solo coming up, and they thought "I'm gonna kick this off like Louis" and then at the first rest, they're like "Shit, that sounded good, I'm gonna keep going!"
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I like. I transcribed that solo ages ago (forgot most of it) so it was nice to hear in harmony!
Originally Posted by docbop
There's a similar moment by Bill Frisell...
Anyway, it becomes a piece of composition.
But, I can't help of thinking of Shakespeare, who everyone acknowledges as one of the great geniuses of Western culture, but who's plays - especially the histories - often reworked material by other playwrights.
I think this a recent perception that originality is an important part of art, rather than a relationship and dialogue with an older tradition. What is originality anyway?
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[QUOTE=MarkRhodes;514736]
I think that's a really good point. Jazz is associated with improvisation purely because it came to prominence at a time where other forms of Western music had more or less rejected it. Improvisation is not, globally, an unusual thing in music at all. It used to be an inextricable part of classical music, as integral as it seems to jazz today. Originally Posted by docbop
If we look at jazz as a verb, to 'jazz' a melody means to alter or syncopate the rhythm. This was the original understanding of what jazz was in the 1920s. This could be done in an improvised, or composed fashion.
The musician most associated with developing the improvised solo (as opposed to improvised polyphony) Louis Armstrong, would often play similar solos on tunes. So given he was meant to have invented improvising solos on AABA songs, this is a significant precedent.
I read somewhere that Chick Corea advocates that you write out - compose - the first whole chorus of the solo for performance. In some settings (swing and vocal gigs for instance) that would mean the whole solo would be composed :-)
Musicians often come into jazz because of the improvised tradition it offers (I did), but the more I learn about that tradition, the more I realise that jazz is about a whole lot more than that.
For my own playing - there are certain pet phrases on certain tunes I used to launch a solo, unconsciously or consciously.Last edited by christianm77; 03-26-2015 at 04:35 PM.
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I seem to remember Barney Kessel saying in an interview, that early in his career he played solos which he repeated on every performance, until he decided that spontaneously improvised solos had more validity.
Could anyone advise me which one please ? Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar
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This, señoras y señores, is what's really at the heart of this topic. A wise man once said on this very forum "Jazz is a curatorial art form"... right Mr Beaumont? Originally Posted by christianm77
K
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Jimmy Raney was reportedly very bugged with Rene's copping of his style. Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar
I saw Jim Hall with Ron Carter at a club in NYC (forgot the name), and Hall played every solo from their "Alone/Together" LP, pretty much note for note. Ron Carter improvised every solo. I started to lose respect for Hall after that night.
I already posted about Pepper Adams being fired from the Miles Davis Quintet for playing Miles' solos down 8va with him every night.
There's a recording of Eric Johnson playing a Wes Montgomery solo, note for note- including the arrangement.
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Thanks for the info on the Rene Thomas recording. I've never heard that.
On a related note, (I'm really stretching my memory here 'cause I haven't heard it in years, but) doesn't Red Garland play one of Miles' "Bird era" blues solos, in block chords, on a blues on the Milestones LP.
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Interesting stories. I'm surprised at the Jim Hall story, I have to say - but if it's a good solo? Originally Posted by sgcim
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Found it. 7m30s
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Just to chime in...
I'd like to ammend that to "some folks treat jazz as a curatorial art form."
And i think the Jim Hall story is bullshit. The man was one of the best pure improvisers ever...and he got better as he got older...listen to "Magic Meeting" to hear almost telepathic listening with his rhytm section (Nash and Colley I think)
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No BS. I saw him and Ron live many times in the 70s when that LP first came out, and as far as I knew, he was improvising on all those gigs (Carnegie Recital Hall, The Guitar, WBAI Free Music Store), but when they had a re-union and played all the tunes on that LP in the 80s, he was playing pretty much the same solos. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Maybe he was just having an off night. When it's just a duo with a bass, you've got to be very strong with your melodic statements, or it's not going to work. I listened to that LP a million times, and even right before I went to the club, so I knew every note of Alone Together, No Receipt, Please, I'll Remember April, St. Thomas, etc...
I remember seeing him hanging out alone at the bar on a break, and not wanting to approach him because I was afraid of what I was going to say!
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Every solo on that LP is a great work of art. If I were talented enough to play those solos, I'd repeat them every time I played! LOL Originally Posted by christianm77
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This ol' chestnut - to truly improvise or not... I always sum it up thusly: Depends which of 3 perpectives you care to take.
1/ You improvise to impress your band mates. After all, they're the toughest critics...
2/ You play to please the audience, who (probably) can't tell if you're improvising or not- they just care abut the quality of your lines. If you're not a great improviser, they'd probably prefer "worked out" solos...
3/ You play/improvise to please yourself. If you get bored playing pre fab lines, then you will take plenty of chances and make mistakes - who cares what the audience thinks. Or, you just love playing composed solos (even your own) because they always sound better than anything you are able to improvise. Or a bit of both....
Haha, ok, it's not as simple as that
Most of us can at one time or another relate to all 3 perspectives.
BTW, is it true that the MJQ made a point of not improvising? If so, was it Jazz? (or even Modern for that matter )
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I didn't mean to twist your words against you or anything. Just keep the dialogue going. When you said that originally, you were referring to the Traditionalist vs modern debate. But the general idea applies here as well. To the extent that each individual musician gets to pick what he or she means by jazz, by improvisation, etc. No one gets to tell you what music means to you... I think the same goes for improvised solos. Wether it IS or ISN'T jazz is not really the point. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Anyway, great article and great discussion.
K
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Was just reading some quotes of famous Jazz musicians and saw this and thought of this thread.
Never play anything the same way twice - Louis Armstrong.
I never sing a song the same way twice. - Billie Holiday.
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"We never play the same thing once"
.......Shelley Manne, to an interviewer wanting his definition of jazz musicians.
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I love that quote! Originally Posted by Moonray
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Originally Posted by docbop
Here is Billie doing "God Bless the Child" twice, once live, and I think the versions are more alike than they are different.
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Conversely, from an autobiography of Jim Douglas, guitarist with the Alex Welsh Band: Originally Posted by docbop
"It was obvious from the start that this was going to be musically different because Bud (Freeman) had a set programme he used on his world tours, and intended using it with us. While jamming with the whole ensemble, he improvised freely but, for his features he used the same numbers in the same order, even playing the same solos, at every concert. To an audience who would hear his performance once, or at most a couple of times, this didn't matter too much but, to me the repetition began to get a little wearing, especially after three or four tours."
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