View Poll Results: PICK ONE (gun to head...)

Voters
147. You may not vote on this poll
  • SWING

    38 25.85%
  • BEBOP

    21 14.29%
  • HARD BOP

    24 16.33%
  • COOL

    9 6.12%
  • MODAL

    3 2.04%
  • POST BOP

    31 21.09%
  • FUSION AND/OR FREE

    21 14.29%
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  1. #1

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    Hypothetically, if you were forced to pick one style to focus on forever, which would it be?

    Oh, by "Post Bop" I mean Tyner, Hancock, Miles, Henderson etc from say '64 to 68.

    I'm just curious to know the current prevailing tastes of the members of this forum, once and for all!

    * Please be a sport, just pick one, OK? I know it's almost impossible, but today I'm gonna say Post Bop. (Tomorrow it might be Modal or Hard Bop...)

    And yeah, I know I missed Bossa, GJ and other styles, it's because I stupidly chosen only 7....
    Last edited by princeplanet; 02-23-2015 at 11:53 AM.

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  3. #2

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    Post Bop/with a lean towards free.

    That's what I really do on my own...most of the music I post here is examples on standards and such, but that's not really me.

  4. #3

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    The definition vary so much depending on source so I would say Bop/Post Bop. As said if you study Bop it gives you what you need to play anything and I could play Post Bop style (sneaking in some of the Funky Jazz of the 70's) forever and be happy.

  5. #4

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    Yea... i'm with docbop... CTI 70's, still enjoy playing in that style.

  6. #5

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    I think a lot of post bop and fusion are modal, so I'm not sure that modal is a style, as such.

  7. #6

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    I don't think "Swing Music" is the only music that swings, but I picked it anyway. The old saying "It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing" works pretty well for me.

    A very minor nitpick is that I might have added "West Coast", but there are often a great many ways to slice and dice poll categories. Besides, I would have picked Swing anyway.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by HighSpeedSpoon
    I don't think "Swing Music" is the only music that swings, but I picked it anyway. The old saying "It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing" works pretty well for me.

    A very minor nitpick is that I might have added "West Coast", but there are often a great many ways to slice and dice poll categories. Besides, I would have picked Swing anyway.
    Yeah, I was hoping that West Coast lovers would just hit the Cool button, close enough maybe?....

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by fumblefingers
    I think a lot of post bop and fusion are modal, so I'm not sure that modal is a style, as such.
    Fair point, so can we, for the sake of simplicity, just say that "Modal" might refer to modal based music from late 50's to mid 60's ?

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Yeah, I was hoping that West Coast lovers would just hit the Cool button, close enough maybe?....
    You have a point IMO and - truth be told - that same thought occurred to me. There is certainly overlap, for example with players like Brubeck, Desmond, and Giuffre. But some "cool" players (most notably Miles IMO) were east coast guys, and other west coast players were a bit on the hot side to be called cool. Stan Getz is the one that comes most to mind. IIRC many bob stylings are in his music even back then, although perhaps not so apparent in the bossa stuff that made the most radio play.

    Still, at the end of the day you have a good point.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by HighSpeedSpoon
    You have a point IMO and - truth be told - that same thought occurred to me. There is certainly overlap, for example with players like Brubeck, Desmond, and Giuffre. But some "cool" players (most notably Miles IMO) were east coast guys, and other west coast players were a bit on the hot side to be called cool. Stan Getz is the one that comes most to mind. IIRC many bob stylings are in his music even back then, although perhaps not so apparent in the bossa stuff that made the most radio play.

    Still, at the end of the day you have a good point.
    The Bop players resisted Cool jazz because it was such a different mindset. Instead of having changes that gave you something to play off of with Cool Jazz it was all about creating melodies. Even Coltrane wasn't that fond if it when playing with Miles and went back to playing changes when he left. Years later Coltrane start getting into the modal thing on his own. Playing change is a challenge, but can also be a crutch, coming up with good melodies/lines is challenging.

  12. #11

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    you included all styles you said fusion..fusion is all styles...that is what I play ... no limits. pre cool and pre fusion is like a painting with all the trees and people etc already painted by other people and all the room they left you is room to paint a small house in the middle.. I like a more open canvas on which to pant.
    Last edited by EOE; 02-23-2015 at 02:07 PM.

  13. #12

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    Since jazz/blues is not a category, I'd have to go with fusion since in my perception of the category, it encompasses a broad range of sounds drawing from many jazz and rock influences.

    I'm too sane and too slow for bop.
    Last edited by zigzag; 11-29-2019 at 10:29 AM.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Fair point, so can we, for the sake of simplicity, just say that "Modal" might refer to modal based music from late 50's to mid 60's ?
    Shore.

    of course that sounds like post bop, at least to me.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    The Bop players resisted Cool jazz because it was such a different mindset. Instead of having changes that gave you something to play off of with Cool Jazz it was all about creating melodies. Even Coltrane wasn't that fond if it when playing with Miles and went back to playing changes when he left. Years later Coltrane start getting into the modal thing on his own. Playing change is a challenge, but can also be a crutch, coming up with good melodies/lines is challenging.
    Thanks Doc. That's a very interesting insight and one that I did not know about. Insight aside, it also provides at least one reason why Getz, a master of melodic line, was "cool" even though he could play changes with anyone, and even though he used "bop stylings" (like enclosure and sidestepping etc.) even back then IIRC.

    One thing I don't understand is this: I don't think of West Coast or Cool Jazz as modal. Far from it. Am I missing something? Certainly Brubeck, Desmond, Getz, Mulligan, Guiffre etc were not noted for modal playing so far I know, but they are still considered by many to be "West Coast", "Cool", or both. I think that is part of princeplanet's point.

  16. #15

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    "Ted Greene style" for solo guitar or very small ensemble. Or at least my own simplified take on that style.
    Last edited by KirkP; 02-23-2015 at 04:03 PM.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by HighSpeedSpoon
    Thanks Doc. That's a very interesting insight and one that I did not know about. Insight aside, it also provides at least one reason why Getz, a master of melodic line, was "cool" even though he could play changes with anyone, and even though he used "bop stylings" (like enclosure and sidestepping etc.) even back then IIRC.

    One thing I don't understand is this: I don't think of West Coast or Cool Jazz as modal. Far from it. Am I missing something? Certainly Brubeck, Desmond, Getz, Mulligan, Guiffre etc were not noted for modal playing so far I know, but they are still considered by many to be "West Coast", "Cool", or both. I think that is part of princeplanet's point.
    Yes, there was and still is a West Coast vs East Coast thing with Jazz. I lived most my life on the West Coast and prefer East Coast Jazz it has an attitude, a fire and intensity that the West Coast doesn't. Even how player approach their instruments is different. A generalization often used is West Coast players are technicians and East Coast Feel players. As I said that's a generalization so people don't start lighting torches there are exceptions to everything.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by EOE
    you included all styles you said fusion..fusion is all styles...that is what I play ... no limits. pre cool and pre fusion is like a painting with all the trees and people etc already painted by other people and all the room they left you is room to paint a small house in the middle.. I like a more open canvas on which to pant.
    Maybe it should have said "jazz/rock fusion", the original fusion, at least by name.

    the combination or "fusing" of styles beyond that has indeed expanded significantly, practically beyond categorization.
    Last edited by fumblefingers; 02-23-2015 at 05:04 PM.

  19. #18

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    European Free Improvised Music based on functional and non-function harmonic forms.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    Yes, there was and still is a West Coast vs East Coast thing with Jazz. I lived most my life on the West Coast and prefer East Coast Jazz it has an attitude, a fire and intensity that the West Coast doesn't. Even how player approach their instruments is different. A generalization often used is West Coast players are technicians and East Coast Feel players. As I said that's a generalization so people don't start lighting torches there are exceptions to everything.
    Yeah, I get it Doc - but in a very general way, as you say. As much as I dig the West Coast vibe - and I do - I admit to thinking of it as being "tidier" and more arranged sounding (which some of it was). The late, great Paul Desmond is the most iconic example that comes to mind. I love Desmond's music and I'm grateful that we have it, but he is hardly the epitome of fire and passion, at least not in my book.

  21. #20

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    That 'west coast' label can be misleading. Don't forget, back in the 1940s there was a hard-swinging scene in LA e.g. Dexter Gordon, Hampton Hawes, Wardell Gray. Later on, people like Mingus, Dolphy, Harold Land, Sonny Criss and Ornette Coleman were active there.

  22. #21

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    Yes, there are exceptions. The Four Brothers were out there too, working for Woody Herman - Giuffre even arranged for them, but I would hardly call Zoot Sims or Al Cohn tepid.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by HighSpeedSpoon
    Yes, there are exceptions. The Four Brothers were out there too, working for Woody Herman - Giuffre even arranged for them, but I would hardly call Zoot Sims or Al Cohn tepid.
    Even today West Coast radio and club tend to be laid back. The Tuesday guitar nights help liven things up.

  24. #23

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    I cheated ... To me "fusion" implies music that crosses genres and brings in different stuff. So I picked that one even though I'm sure it means fusion as a genre like electric, jazz influenced rock music a la the 70s and 80s. Oh wrll

  25. #24

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    I always saw the difference between east coast and west coast was a matter more or less blues and more or less classical music (read white music) influence.

    But I don't see it as geographical...
    Last edited by MarkRhodes; 02-24-2015 at 10:31 AM. Reason: spelling

  26. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by zigzag
    Since jazz/blues is not a category, I'd have to go with fusion since in my perception of the category, it encompasses a broad range of sounds drawing from many influences.

    I'm too sane and too slow for bop.
    Wouldn't Hard Bop be a possible button for Jazz/Blues guys? I would have thought so more than Fusion, but yeah, whatever.

  27. #26
    .... and yeah, we all knew there was gonna be the inevitable bitching about missing styles, or overlapping styles or even just the definitions themselves, but like the title says, if there was a gun pointed at you, and you had to pick just one of the broad choices above, surely most of us could do that? I mean, rather than be shot....

    Now before anyone suggests that I should be shot for not providing enough options, consider that I was originally going to just ask whether you identify more with either: 1/Early 2/ Middle or 3/Late periods of Jazz! Just to get a broad sketch of our collective tastes. But I'm glad I ended up with a few more distinctions, for example, Swing vs Bebop. At this stage Swing is the clear leader, Bebop the clear "loser" ! Early days of course, but that's pretty interesting to me, given that much of the discourse on this forum relating to improv is definitely about building Bop vocab against changes (Standards). I guess Bebop is our Lingua Franca, we still study it as it informs many other styles. But from looking at the graph up top, you might think it's more like Latin - ie, a dead language....?

  28. #27

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    How would you classify the current players Avishai Cohen (Trumpet), Rotem Sivan, Gilad Hekselman, Rafal Sarnecki, Petros Klampanis and my new discovery Assaf Kehati.

    Old stuff is cool but if I had to pick one style is the current guys. The new stuff is exciting to me as I have not heard it yet but I can't hear it if you shoot me.

  29. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by gggomez
    How would you classify the current players Avishai Cohen (Trumpet), Rotem Sivan, Gilad Hekselman, Rafal Sarnecki, Petros Klampanis and my new discovery Assaf Kehati.

    Old stuff is cool but if I had to pick one style is the current guys. The new stuff is exciting to me as I have not heard it yet but I can't hear it if you shoot me.
    So you couldn't just choose the last category, to at least separate you from the older styles? Just tryin' to get a ballpark here, if I had another category that said "Totally Unique and Unclassifiable", I bet too many of us would chose that, even if we, erm, weren't..... maybe.

  30. #29

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    I initially thought postbop by I saw it had a cut off of 1968.

    When I read fusion I think Crusaders, Weather Report don't know any modern fusion bands to throw a name and free I think Coleman.

    Apologies if I have hijacked your thread, I just like to fly the flag for the new guys, amazing artists trying to make a living out of an art form and also guys that are very kind hearted and helping me on my journey. The amazing power of google even mentioning their names in a forum like this it can come up in a google search. That has to be good for business.

  31. #30
    OK, so enough votes to see the trends. Anyone else surprised to see Swing right up there and Bebop way down? Most surprising for me is that no-one picked Modal, given that Modal Jazz is so popular with casual listeners, and fun to play.

    Anyone have any ideas about why Modal is the only zero thus far? I thought that the crossover contingent from Rock and Blues world would have found Modal Jazz to be a comfortable platform for the Jazz novice more familiar with improvising in single keys.

    Or is it just that Modal Jazz is often simply a part of Hard Bop, Cool and Post Bop (Even jazz/funk/rock fusion)?

  32. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    OK, so enough votes to see the trends. Anyone else surprised to see Swing right up there and Bebop way down? Most surprising for me is that no-one picked Modal, given that Modal Jazz is so popular with casual listeners, and fun to play.

    Anyone have any ideas about why Modal is the only zero thus far? I thought that the crossover contingent from Rock and Blues world would have found Modal Jazz to be a comfortable platform for the Jazz novice more familiar with improvising in single keys.

    Or is it just that Modal Jazz is often simply a part of Hard Bop, Cool and Post Bop (Even jazz/funk/rock fusion)?
    I thing the setup "Hypothetically, if you were forced to pick one style to focus on forever" is why no one has picked modal (yet). Despite the freedom, there is just not enough compared to other styles for Modal to be the Mr or Mrs Right of "focus on forever" genres. I'm not sure what to say about Swing versus Bebop. I was surprised, although pleasantly for me, as I chose Swing.
    Last edited by HighSpeedSpoon; 02-24-2015 at 12:03 PM.

  33. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    is it just that Modal Jazz is often simply a part of Hard Bop, Cool and Post Bop (Even jazz/funk/rock fusion)?
    I would say modal is included strongly in post bop and fusion to such a degree that it can't be separated from it. I don't feel the post bop era ever ended.

  34. #33

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    the new stuff is the lighter version of fusion called smooth jazz. which I like to play..

  35. #34
    .... just bumpin' the poll to get a few more votes before it disappears into the ether....

  36. #35

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    Swing. Hot club.

    Its cool.

    But if I would have to choose what i would listen my whole life after this, it would be harder to choose. I could just listen modal jazz and drink wine, or I could take funky fusion and still keep myself funky. Also there just keeping it swing could be nice.

  37. #36

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    I said cool because that is how I would describe my favorites Bill Evans and Ed Bickert and Paul Desmond... sweet swinging beauty... I could play/ study these three for the rest of my life and not feel like I missing out on anything...

  38. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddy b.
    I said cool because that is how I would describe my favorites Bill Evans and Ed Bickert and Paul Desmond... sweet swinging beauty... I could play/ study these three for the rest of my life and not feel like I missing out on anything...
    A rose by any other name ...

    Whatever you call it, that's not a bad short list. Ed Bickert is perhaps under-appreciated by the general public, although maybe not on this forum. And BTW, after reading your post I looked through my limited collection of only three albums in Bill Evans' name, and I noticed that two of them were with Jim Hall (Intermodulation and Undercurrent). The third was the solo album Alone.

  39. #38

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    Definitely Fusion. I'd get a little crazy if I couldn't crank up my amp and cut loose every once in a while.

  40. #39

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    Darn. I couldn't choose. I tend to categorize jazz as "melodic" and "not so melodic," LOL. And I also would have liked to have been able to consider "Latin Jazz" (I used to play in a salsa band, and have enjoyed playing with Brazilian musicians).

  41. #40

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    George Benson said in his book that one of the reasons jazz died was because no one knew what to expect if they turned up for a gig. ie Free or Trad etc. So the general public just gave up and turned to Pop/Rock. Too many weird sub divisions. Perhaps that's true.

  42. #41

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    "Fusion" covers everything there right ? ;-)

  43. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by vhollund
    "Fusion" covers everything there right ? ;-)
    Sort of, I guess.

    I enjoy playing with an overdriven, saturated tone. If I were playing straight-up rock, I'd probably go for something a little brighter.

  44. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Hypothetically, if you were forced to pick one style to focus on forever, which would it be?

    Oh, by "Post Bop" I mean Tyner, Hancock, Miles, Henderson etc from say '64 to 68.

    I'm just curious to know the current prevailing tastes of the members of this forum, once and for all!

    * Please be a sport, just pick one, OK? I know it's almost impossible, but today I'm gonna say Post Bop. (Tomorrow it might be Modal or Hard Bop...)

    And yeah, I know I missed Bossa, GJ and other styles, it's because I stupidly chosen only 7....
    I made a similar poll. Seems pretty evenly split between people who only listen to old school jazz and those of us who enjoy both old school and the new:

    https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/playe...ou-living.html
    Last edited by Jazzpunk; 05-20-2015 at 05:16 PM.

  45. #44

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    I wanna be like John Scofield and Bill Frisell and get away with playing one style in as many of those boxes as I can :-)

  46. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by md54
    George Benson said in his book that one of the reasons jazz died was because no one knew what to expect if they turned up for a gig. ie Free or Trad etc. So the general public just gave up and turned to Pop/Rock. Too many weird sub divisions. Perhaps that's true.
    I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this. The word 'jazz' confuses people now.

  47. #46

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    If a musician wants his/her work to be popular, they must focus not only on the art, but also on being entertaining and adapting to the interests of the masses. Like it or not, people flock to those who do the best job of this. George Benson is a case in point.

  48. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by KIRKP
    If a musician wants his/her work to be popular, they must focus not only on the art, but also on being entertaining and adapting to the interests of the masses. Like it or not, people flock to those who do the best job of this. George Benson is a case in point.
    Hey KIRKP, I wonder if people on this forum ever get the two of us mixed up. My views are very different from yours, despite the nearly identical usernames!

  49. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkirk
    Hey KIRKP, I wonder if people on this forum ever get the two of us mixed up. My views are very different from yours, despite the nearly identical usernames!
    Ha! I was going to accuse you of causing the potential confusion, but looks like you created your username 6 months before me, so I won't. Glancing though your past posts I don't see anything you've said I'd disagree with. I haven't seen evidence of anyone confusing us, but someone does that should be easy to correct. Nothin wrong with having different viewpoints.
    Last edited by KirkP; 06-09-2015 at 01:35 AM.

  50. #49

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    It's a shame your usernames are not exact palindromes and you had completely diametrically opposing opinions, but it's getting there ;-)

    Maybe I'll start create a username 77mnaitsirhc and start having arguments with myself.

  51. #50

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    For me it's Swing Jazz and Western Swing.

    Gimme Charlie Christian, Jimmy Bryant and Junior Barnard all day!