Modes vs. Major scale

[fumblefingers]

Hello,
This is my first post here although I've been surfing this amazing forum from time to time and trying to absorb the material.
I'm at a stage where I'm learning the 5 major scale patterns all over the neck as Jimmy Bruno and Carl Verheyen teach. I understand modes but don't understand fully what you gain from them as opposed to thinking in a major scale form. For example, some educators (in books and videos) will talk about a "ii" "V" "I" as simply playing the major scale of the "I". Others will talk about playing the Dorian on the "ii", Mixolydian on the "V" and Ionian on the "I". But... (and this is what I don't understand), these are exactly the same notes as the just playing the major scale so what do you gain by thinking in modes as opposed to just playing the major scale?
Thank you.

Well when you say that you understand modes what do you mean, modal scales or modal compositions or both? Can you explain a little bit about what you know?

Regardless, you may want to purchase a few music theory books from Berklee Press, and maybe Garrison Fewell's improv books too. Lots to keep you busy with.

In Jerry Coker's classic book Improvising Jazz in chapter 1 he simply refers to the Major scale, Dorian mode and Mixolydian mode with a quick nod to music theory. From there he has you (1) write a few sample blues tune chords on paper, write and play the scales/modes against the chords, and write and play the arpeggios against the chords - then keeps going. So it's not a bad idea to do this to get them in your eyes and ears before moving on to further improv topics. This is step 1.

Not trying to be a Smart Alec, but there's no need to over-think things here.

[Reg]

Hmmm after some thought and boring gig... Just play, for most musicians that's the goal.

Pkirks and fumblefingers advice is more than enough.

I would guess your not really going to need to be able to understand or hear the difference. Won't really need to be able sight read new music on stage or in studio... be able to hear or recognize the differences between modal organizations as compared to a tonal reference.

Most musicians just replay what they already know, or they pre learn... memorize tunes, practice them etc... Nothing wrong with that, especially if that's what you hear.

I do it all the time... If the thinking aspect gets in the way, don't think. I'm somewhat joking... but really you need to know who you are... the playing part is usually the goal, not the thinking.

[yairhol]

Often what happens is people come from rock, where the harmony never changes, or changes infrequently, or changes in ways that doesn't follow the formulae that standards do. In rock, (and in some streams in jazz, hence "modal jazz") it often makes sense to use interesting scales, and you can generate interesting scales by thinking modally, e.g. on an Amin there are many modes of the major, or melodic minor, or harmonic minor (parent) scales that make for useful pitch collections to improvise over a static Amin harmony.

pkirk, you wrote an excellent post. As you implied, I come from a rock background and use modes to solo
over static chords. For example, while jamming I would have a static Am7 chord playing in the background and I'll solo using Dorian, Aeolian, melodic minor, pentatonics, blues scale etc.

So you might take the approach: clump a few chord together and look for pitch collections that work over all the chords in that collection. So in your example, the notes of the Gmaj scale work over Ami D7 Gmaj. The trouble with this is that when you do this is doesn't sound anything like Bird/Miles/Rollins/Wes/etc. Instead it sounds like your lines aren't going anywhere, even though all the pitches might be "correct".

I can totally relate to this.

There are lots of suggestions upstream and everywhere on this forum on what to do if you want to play II-V-I in jazz. More sensible approaches include emphasize chord tones, use arpeggios, enclosures, tritone subs on the V, etc. But probably the most direct thing to start with is get a book that has a list of II-V-I licks of clifford brown, Wes, Parker, etc, (e.g. the David Baker books) and commit 20 of them to memory in every key. Save the "theory" for analyzing these after you know them, then you'll be able to produce your own.

Would you suggest putting modes aside when playing Jazz as opposed to relying heavily on modes when playing rock?


fumblefingers, what I mean when I say I understand modes is that I know how to play the modes of the major scale everywhere on the guitar (parallel and series approaches) and can improvise with them over *simple* modal chord progressions i.e. where I use chords that are diatonic to the major scale. What I do is harmonize the major scale and then use those chords to come up with a chord progression emphasizing whichever degree of the scale that I want that progression to revolve around (gravitate to). Then I solo using the mode of that degree (sometimes adding embelishments using outside notes).

The educational videos I've been watching to teach me modes are all rock related so I assumed they hold true for Jazz as well.

[docbop]

Modal Jazz came about because the creator want to focus on creating melodies and trying to make changes. Not everyone was a fan of modal Jazz Coltrane played it with Miles but stuck to play tune with changes in his own band. Coltrane later in his career start focusing on melody and got into modal Jazz for awhile. As nothing is static you might have 8 bars of Ami but even in a modal tune your going to be comping and implying other chords to add movement and interest. Difference instead of the tune having changes to work from you're going to be adding chords from the mode the tune is based on. Modal vs Scales is more about where you are pulling your resources from as a composer and soloist.

[fumblefingers]

pkirk, you wrote an excellent post. As you implied, I come from a rock background and use modes to solo
over static chords. For example, while jamming I would have a static Am7 chord playing in the background and I'll solo using Dorian, Aeolian, melodic minor, pentatonics, blues scale etc.



I can totally relate to this.



Would you suggest putting modes aside when playing Jazz as opposed to relying heavily on modes when playing rock?


fumblefingers, what I mean when I say I understand modes is that I know how to play the modes of the major scale everywhere on the guitar (parallel and series approaches) and can improvise with them over *simple* modal chord progressions i.e. where I use chords that are diatonic to the major scale. What I do is harmonize the major scale and then use those chords to come up with a chord progression emphasizing whichever degree of the scale that I want that progression to revolve around (gravitate to). Then I solo using the mode of that degree (sometimes adding embelishments using outside notes).

The educational videos I've been watching to teach me modes are all rock related so I assumed they hold true for Jazz as well.

gotcha. well then you are more than capable of understanding the simple instructions about "play this scale/mode over that chord" kind of advice, even if it is superficial.

regarding your last point about rock videos i'll close by saying one more thing - even if it's a cliche.

jazz "vocabulary" (swing, bop, post bop) is different from rock. so even if one is playing the same set of chords with the same theoretically correct chord scales, the soloist expresses himself in a distinctively different way.

[docbop]

He says play Dorian over the ii chord, Mixolydian over the V, Ionian over the I, Lydian over the IV, etc....

Those are common default modes people use on II V I and IV. This is what you'd find in beginning improv classes and books everywhere.

[mr. beaumont]

Well...he's not exactly saying "this is what you play"...he's outling one of several concepts, "spelling" he calls it, and he says a few minutes later (when talking about the arpeggios derived from the "spelling" method) that it's pretty dry sounding. Then he does his diminished over dominant thing and it gets a bit more interesting.

I'm not sure if his final improvisation at the end of the video was still supposed to sound like an exercise, but it sure did to me. I'd want to hear him play "for real" if that wasn't it, because that solo's pretty stiff, aimless, and weak...

Frankly, I was far from impressed by his Autumn Leaves lesson...but I wonder if I'm a bit tainted because I find the site's name "jazz guitar legend" so offputting.

[yairhol]

Those are common default modes people use on II V I and IV. This is what you'd find in beginning improv classes and books everywhere.

But what he teaches with Dorian over ii, Lydian over IV etc. is exactly what I was asking in the original post.
Why not say play G major scale over these chords. Then continue on with diminished arpeggios and what not.

[mr. beaumont]

I think because he's getting at how to break things down chord by chord, from basic to more complex.

Its not really clear, but it's about one minute out of a 14 minute video...sure he could have said "all these modes are derivative of the G major scale" but it doesn't change tge fact that's still the most boring way to go.

And to play devil's advocate a bit...just because say, C Lydian and G Ionian share a note set...if you had a long stretch of a chord that called for either, the important notes would be different over each chord, no?

And that seems to be where he's going when he addresses the arpeggios...

[docbop]

But what he teaches with Dorian over ii, Lydian over IV etc. is exactly what I was asking in the original post.
Why not say play G major scale over these chords. Then continue on with diminished arpeggios and what not.

Sure its all same notes as G major, but you need to learn which notes to emphasize over a chord type. Each mode has characteristic notes that give them their personality you need to learn that. IMO this is a problem with teaching CST people think because they know the correct scale or mode they ready to start ripping away, but they sound like mush. You need to woodshed lets say dorian mode on a II chord and start learn what each note of the dorian mode sounds like against a II chord, this is part of training your ear. You need to discover what note of the dorian gives it, its personality. This is where you spend a lot of time in the woodshed learning sounds of note in a situation.

Autumn Leaves is a great beginners song because it can be solo'd on with one set of notes a major scale, its relative minor, and modes but if you don't pick the right notes over each chord your solo is gibberish. You have to pick the right notes to play over each chord to create a solo that sounds like you are in control.

[yairhol]

Autumn Leaves is a great beginners song because it can be solo'd on with one set of notes a major scale, its relative minor, and modes but if you don't pick the right notes over each chord your solo is gibberish. You have to pick the right notes to play over each chord to create a solo that sounds like you are in control.

In a nutshell that's the art of improvisation.

[fumblefingers]

beginner solos sound like gibberish anyway, to one extent or the other. so just get going and plough forward.

no worries mate! :0

[MarkRhodes]

All the way to 1959, or so

1959 still sounds good to me:

[pkirk]

Would you suggest putting modes aside when playing Jazz as opposed to relying heavily on modes when playing rock?

There are no rules really. as Docbop says, there are plenty of streams in jazz where thinking modally is a good way to go, and I and almost everybody who's played a while has practiced modes of the three basic scales (major, melodic and harmonic minor) and found ways to use them in various improv contexts.

But I just think if you want to play jazz you need to address the tradition and history. In particular the typical place to start your jazz journey is with standards/bebop, and for that you have to think in a different way. In my view you are more likely to make progress if you "learn the language", which means learn and study what the masters played rather than modes or scales. Don't forget also that, in jazz rhythm is the most important ingredient, more important than pitch choice.

[bako]

Anything tied into learning a style, starts with referencing the contributions of master musicians within the genre.
Saturated listening, transcription and chasing insights into their methods.
In addition to the harmonic nuance of melody, stay mindful of rhythm.

The study of modes presents organized alternative collections of notes that address the different chord qualities.
In my opinion, this is valuable stuff. It is not the answer to every question but nothing ever is.

You can address a major II V I with a single major scale.
Historically, there have been many beautiful melodies created within this note collection.
If someone wants to define that as dorian, mixolydian and ionian, who cares.

Jazz has often in the least employed alterations to the V chord and a barrage of
passing chords and substitutions at the other end of the spectrum.

As a learning method, one could start out practice creating lines within the major scale and then
systematically alter notes over the V chord and elsewhere as needed.
The ability to adapt a line to fit a different harmony is a useful skill.

It is also characteristic to use much ornamentation, including chromatic.
You could also take the same material and experiment adding diatonic and chromatic auxiliary notes.
Passing notes can be defined as incidental or tied in with passing harmonies.
The latter potentially being a more comprehensive approach.

[boatheelmusic]

Make it easy on yourself.

Learn the major scale (or pitch collection) cold in five positions of the fretboard, up, down, and mixed up, train your ear to establish the finger/ear connection, and play.

Later, sprinkle in chromatic tones to taste.

No need to think about modes at all. They will just confuse you.

(dons flame retardant suit)

[mr. beaumont]

Until somebody gives you a chart for Dolphin Dance and you get to the last 8 bars.

[boatheelmusic]

Mr. Beaumont, that pretension is what kills jazz for so many trying to learn..

Nobody said major scales are all there are, but it's a way to learn, and will take you far, far down the road.

Or did you start the journey with the last 8 bars of Dolphin Dance?

I think not.

[GuyBoden]

I blame the Aebersold beginners Jazz Play-A-Longs that have the whole scales written out underneath each chord.

I remember looking at the beginners Jazz book "Maiden Voyage Vol 54" about 20 odd years ago and it had a scale for each chord for easy songs like "Satin Doll".

[mr. beaumont]

Mr. Beaumont, that pretension is what kills jazz for so many trying to learn..

Nobody said major scales are all there are, but it's a way to learn, and will take you far, far down the road.

Or did you start the journey with the last 8 bars of Dolphin Dance?

I think not.

it's not pretension. It's reality. There's no shortcuts.

i probably preach more than anybody here that you can get really far in jazz knowing your major scales and how to build chords and arpeggios. But that's one step.

When I see people get on the "no scales, no modes" biz i see people looking for shortcuts/excuses not to learn something. Shortcuts lead only to frustration, regret, and mediocrity. I know--i am a picture of what happens when you get lazy--i'm ten years into working out of it...

[GuyBoden]

it's not pretension. It's reality. There's no shortcuts.

i probably preach more than anybody here that you can get really far in jazz knowing your major scales and how to build chords and arpeggios. But that's one step.

When I see people get on the "no scales, no modes" biz i see people looking for shortcuts/excuses not to learn something. Shortcuts lead only to frustration, regret, and mediocrity. I know--i am a picture of what happens when you get lazy--i'm ten years into working out of it...

Learn both:

Modes for Modern/Modal. "Impressions"

Chord Tones for older standards. "Satin Doll"

And combinations of the two............................

[mr. beaumont]

Yep. Guy's got it.

If you only know one way from point A to B, what happens when the road's closed?

[MarkRhodes]

it's not pretension. It's reality. There's no shortcuts.

I think CST was the attempt at a shortcut..... Didn't work for me, that's for sure.

[mr. beaumont]

I'd say more like a direct route than a shortcut. Again--for SOME things.

Mark, I think you'd agree, for the jazz you personally are into, thinking chord scales while practicing doesn't make much sense. There are other types of jazz where it makes a whole lot of sense.

[pamosmusic]

This is a bit silly to me ... Apologies if anyone takes offense to that ... The obvious answer to his question is that, yes, they are made up of the same collections of pitches. Technical differences aside (yes I am aware of the differences but at the end of the discussion the differences between one mode and another mode from the same parent scale lies somewhere between the underlying harmony and the frame of mind of the composer/improviser)

i absolutely loathe chord scale theory and think it makes for the most stale stiff soloing on gods green earth. I'll also say that when I was younger I practiced it a lot before realizing that it wasn't entirely applicable to the kind of straight ahead jazz I was trying to learn. So the big question is ... Did I get any benefit from it? Almost certainly. I can hear modes where they need to be heard ... I can play flat 9s or sharp 11s on chords because I spent loads of time shedding the shit out of scale fingerings and modal organization of my ears. It's fine to have this deep philosophical discussion of what is applicable to traditional jazz but the fact is that we don't really know what the pioneers were thinking about when they practiced. I guarantee you they weren't thinking about modes for every chord in Cherokee but I also guarantee Charlie Parker didn't learn by transcribing nothing but Charlie Parker solos and putting the licks in every context possible. John Coltrane was by many accounts obsessed with NOT practicing the traditional jazz language that was en vogue when he was coming up. Practicing is like throwing spaghetti at a wall. Dive into what's interesting to you and see what sticks. The only way to develop a voice is to practice what interests you. If you're honest with yourself about how thoroughly you practice and don't run from the gaps in your skill set then you can't go wrong.