Dude says - I play what I hear

[Reg]

Hey... Peter,

I say too much and also don't say enough... which leads to not getting my points across. Sorry

Obviously there are many approaches, organizational concepts, basically solos can be put together anyway way we choose.
There are common practice examples etc... but generally the results of what we end up performing are controlled by our technical expertize on our instrument, the situation or context and what we hear, understand and choose to play, accidentally play or are somewhat forced to play.

Your last comment about how you use vocalizing what you perform on guitar.... "in a sort of fluid, subconscious way".
Was basically my point, you don't really need to consciously think, the phrasing and articulations are naturally imposed from basic vocal technique. Which basically always works, right, we all love vocal phrasing, it feels natural and right.

It's just personally that approach isn't the only approach for soloing and again this is my opinion... when I hear guitarist strictly using vocal technique to shape their solos... I fall asleep, it gets old. Again... I'm not say wrong or bad.

Hey christian...eventually don't you look for personal approaches for performing tunes. I mean there really are only so many standards...Eventually... there's nothing to miss. Either through learning and performing for years on gigs or learning and understanding Music... basically there's not much that's really new. And charts... are just a basic outline for what's played.

Different styles influence the changes and how the melodies played... for example, "Miss Jones" as typically played up tempo swing basically implies a set of chord patterns... the organization of the chords played that aren't notated... as compared to performing in a latin style, which can be same tempo but felt in "2", which implied different chord patterns and melody interpretation, which generally leads to different improv etc...

I'm lazy and these suck... but i posed them back in 2010... couple of versions of Miss Jones

[princeplanet]

BTW - has anyone spent some time doing the famous exercise where you select a random Aebersold, drop in at a random point and make yourself solo over it by ear? I'm thinking I should probably do that.

I can see how that would be a great skill to have, and would impress the hell out of people who would be envious - being able to solo well over any random thing any time any place..... But personally, I must say I'm not remotely interested in impressing people at the "jam session".

I'd just be happy to improvise well against tunes that I write. If I spent too much time getting good at "cutting" everyone else at jams, I'd feel like a fraud after a while. Saying this, I understand full well that this was precisely the environment that cultivated the "greats", but they were competing for a lot more "spoils" back then.

Besides, many of the greats who cut their reputation on "cutting" ended up prematurely miserable, broke, burned out or just dead (bless them). They did all that back then so we don't have to now... maybe...

[christianm77]

I can see how that would be a great skill to have, and would impress the hell out of people who would be envious - being able to solo well over any random thing any time any place..... But personally, I must say I'm not remotely interested in impressing people at the "jam session".

I'd just be happy to improvise well against tunes that I write. If I spent too much time getting good at "cutting" everyone else at jams, I'd feel like a fraud after a while. Saying this, I understand full well that this was precisely the environment that cultivated the "greats", but they were competing for a lot more "spoils" back then.

Besides, many of the greats who cut their reputation on "cutting" ended up prematurely miserable, broke, burned out or just dead (bless them). They did all that back then so we don't have to now... maybe...

I see what you are saying, but I don't see the exercise that way. I find from my own experience doing sideman gigs that my musicianship is often stretched. I want it to be better so that I always can deal with situations.

One gig I did last year was with a visiting band leader playing lots of tunes for a dancing audience. No real books, no gaps between songs. A lot of songs I don't know, so having to hear the changes. Modulations are called off the bat. I missed one on Take the A Train (the guitar was low in the mix for rhythm), cued in for a solo and found myself soloing in the key of C against Eb. Sounded hilariously dreadful, haha, couldn't find my way back into the key. If my ears were better I would have caught it.

The reality of musical life (at least in this town) is that rehearsal is not always possible. Your musical skills are what get you through and ensure you carry on getting the calls and earning money. So for me it's entirely practical.

I don't really go to jam sessions much, but they are what they are. They can be fun sometimes, but often the vibe is one of chest-beating.

Anyway, I can't see a good argument against working on one's ears. Besides, developing this ability might help you play your own tunes, who knows?

[Reg]

I remember as a kid... use to play with our local Jazz station, was called KJAZ back then, this was in mid 60's... you really didn't have that many choices of what to practice with. The good thing was I became good at tuning my guitar very quickly, or just playing slightly out of tune.

Hey christian... key of C in Eb can become very bluesy, especially on the II7#11 chord F7#11.

Yea different jam sessions... I've hosted Jams and still do as sub. I direct ensembles comfortably. I actually hosted one for 5 or 6 years... really became work, but I always had pro rhythm section, and who ever was in town would stop by etc...

But I always made it easy for the amateurs to sit in... lots of cues. There was an audience so I also tried to keep the music at a somewhat pro level. I mean where else is a amateur going to be able to perform with 1st call and touring pros.

I might host another one in a few years...

[Stevebol]

I like to try and work out the chords by ear and then look at charts. There are sometimes differences. Most of the time I've missed something, but occasionally the charts are wrong.

Also for standards, it's good to know the main variations of the changes that get played. Checking out different recordings is a quick way of doing this. (Jazzstandards.com is great for tracking down the important recordings.)

Depends on the music though. Standards I hear OK, can pick up changes on a gig without a chart for some stuff. More contemporary/fusion harmony is much harder for me, which is fine as a learning process but not much use if I'm expected to know the tunes for a gig next Friday.

While as a gigging player I do many things to make stuff 'faster' - write charts, read charts, glance at lead sheets for tunes I don't know, I'm pretty suspicious about things that are 'faster.' I might be missing out on something on the way :-)

If you can hear the changes right away first time without the chart, that is quickest. You might need to do some work to get to that level :-) There's a guy in London for example who never used a real book, just flat refused. He's one of the top guys now, but it must have taken some serious bloody mindedness to get through the first couple of years...

I use this site for songs. That's about it. People post a lot of stuff they like and I get songs that way. First thing I listen to is the lyrics. See if there's anything I can relate to etc... Then mess around by ear (oops, I said it) with the melody and chords. See if the tune grabs me. Then I start looking at the written lyrics, chords, find the right key, transpose. Start working on a rhythmic device that might work on guitar.
I've been playing for a long time so I know what I know but I probably never would have heard Lou Rawls TSOYS or Sinatra's Stella if it wasn't for this site. I've gotten quite a few songs from here. It's a learning resource for me, but not for theory and that kind of thing. I already know that stuff.
I wind up voicing chords my own way, but I think it's good to take a look at the Realbook anyway. I have charts I made for all songs with lyrics and chord symbols.

[Stevebol]

I like to try and work out the chords by ear and then look at charts. There are sometimes differences. Most of the time I've missed something, but occasionally the charts are wrong.

Also for standards, it's good to know the main variations of the changes that get played. Checking out different recordings is a quick way of doing this. (Jazzstandards.com is great for tracking down the important recordings.)

Depends on the music though. Standards I hear OK, can pick up changes on a gig without a chart for some stuff. More contemporary/fusion harmony is much harder for me, which is fine as a learning process but not much use if I'm expected to know the tunes for a gig next Friday.

While as a gigging player I do many things to make stuff 'faster' - write charts, read charts, glance at lead sheets for tunes I don't know, I'm pretty suspicious about things that are 'faster.' I might be missing out on something on the way :-)

If you can hear the changes right away first time without the chart, that is quickest. You might need to do some work to get to that level :-) There's a guy in London for example who never used a real book, just flat refused. He's one of the top guys now, but it must have taken some serious bloody mindedness to get through the first couple of years...

The only time I ever used charts was a with a wedding band. I sucked at it too. Thought I knew my chords fairly well but I didn't. Luckily we had a keyboard player who could site read well. At this point I spend about 20-30 minutes trying to figure out a tune by ear- singing and playing. After that I figure that's enough with the torture. Take a look at a chart. It's a long process when deciding if the song is a keeper.

[christianm77]

Hey christian... key of C in Eb can become very bluesy, especially on the II7#11 chord F7#11.

Cool, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. :-) Actually, if I'd really heard Eb against C it would have worked a lot better I'm sure. That's the thing isn't it? I didn't hear it. Almost anything against a chord sounds great if you resolve it in the right way and play it with rhythm.

Yea different jam sessions... I've hosted Jams and still do as sub. I direct ensembles comfortably. I actually hosted one for 5 or 6 years... really became work, but I always had pro rhythm section, and who ever was in town would stop by etc...

But I always made it easy for the amateurs to sit in... lots of cues. There was an audience so I also tried to keep the music at a somewhat pro level. I mean where else is a amateur going to be able to perform with 1st call and touring pros.

I might host another one in a few years...

I've always found that public jam sessions are best when tightly organised. Everyone gets more out of it that way and also sound better. I've never been a fan of the sorts of jams you get when ten sax players try to burn each other on Cherokee. Why do sax players seem to always look at a stage with horn players on it and go 'I know what this song needs, more saxophone!'? Mystery of the universe.

[christianm77]

The only time I ever used charts was a with a wedding band. I sucked at it too. Thought I knew my chords fairly well but I didn't. Luckily we had a keyboard player who could site read well. At this point I spend about 20-30 minutes trying to figure out a tune by ear- singing and playing. After that I figure that's enough with the torture. Take a look at a chart. It's a long process when deciding if the song is a keeper.

It's a skill you can improve. All of them....

The main thing I find difficult is remembering the melody actually. I'm pretty stupid at that. Something to work on :-)

[Stevebol]

Cool, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. :-) Actually, if I'd really heard Eb against C it would have worked a lot better I'm sure. That's the thing isn't it? I didn't hear it. Almost anything against a chord sounds great if you resolve it in the right way and play it with rhythm.



I've always found that public jam sessions are best when tightly organised. Everyone gets more out of it that way and also sound better. I've never been a fan of the sorts of jams you get when ten sax players try to burn each other on Cherokee. Why do sax players seem to always look at a stage with horn players on it and go 'I know what this song needs, more saxophone!'? Mystery of the universe.

Jazz is about the horns. They're the poets and pioneers. We have the portable pianos if you know what I mean.

[christianm77]

Jazz is about the horns. They're the poets and pioneers. We have the portable pianos if you know what I mean.

The people who turn up and blow eight technically impressive but completely non-swinging note congested sub-Coltrane choruses of scalic diarrhea on Cherokee are poets and pioneers only in their own minds.

We have to comp for them (well actually we would if they left any space.) For chorus after 300bpm chorus. Think of the bass player. Think of the drummer.

Needless to say when it comes around to the rhythm section - 'oh sorry out of time.' At that point, it's probably just as well anyway.

On the other hand you can go and play Gypsy jazz where the guitarist is King, and you have much the same phenomenon. Only with arpeggios.

I can't really be bothered to participate in that type of silliness. I've done my years of empty non-swinging scalic diarrhea. :-)

I like to (try to) make good music, and luckily there are lots of musicians around who feel the same.

[christianm77]

Often the catalyst is someone who is actually really good and can play 8 stunning technically impressive post-Coltrane choruses on Cherokee, and then all the other horn players take this as a challenge to prove how great they are.

I'm not really an angry man. I find it funny more than anything else.

[GuyBoden]

Often the catalyst is someone who is actually really good and can play 8 stunning technically impressive post-Coltrane choruses on Cherokee, and then all the other horn players take this as a challenge to prove how great they are.

I'm not really an angry man. I find it funny more than anything else.

What stopped me going to Jams was the hobbyist Guitarists playing bad rock blues solos over classic Jazz blues tunes, changing the original swing to a rock beat.

[gnatola]

What stopped me going to Jams was the hobbyist Guitarists playing bad rock blues solos over classic Jazz blues tunes, changing the original swing to a rock beat.

I don't know why I keep coming back to these forums. What a bunch of snobs. Legends in your own minds.

If any of you superstars can, while improvising over changes at a brisk tempo, hear a line in your head and immediately transfer it to your instrument, prove it. Simply prove it.

[gnatola]

I don't know why I keep coming back to these forums. What a bunch of snobs. Legends in your own minds.

If any of you superstars can, while improvising over changes at a brisk tempo, hear a line in your head and immediately transfer it to your instrument, prove it. Simply prove it.

My most enjoyable experiences as a musician have been the times when I have played with musicians who were more talented than I, and graciously taught me. And, the few times I have been able to teach the few who couldn't play as well as I.

[christianm77]

I don't know why I keep coming back to these forums. What a bunch of snobs. Legends in your own minds.

If any of you superstars can, while improvising over changes at a brisk tempo, hear a line in your head and immediately transfer it to your instrument, prove it. Simply prove it.

There's a good point there, probably not. Mind you Adam Rogers said 'when you play fast you can only play what you've already played' so if HE feels that way, that's interesting. That is I could probably sing what I play but not improvise truly by ear.

But you can obviously do things like half time the beat. I like the way Peter Bernstein takes fast tempos, quite a lot of space.

I'm not quite sure how you could prove it. How would you go about it?

[Reg]

Yea... it does seem that most are all about themselves. But when you look at a little bigger picture, or more than a couple of posts... maybe there's more.

This is a jazz guitar sight... right. Most Jazz guitars don't sing, and if your a jazz guitarist and you choose to sing, great.

So we have those who come to this forum to get free stuff, those who like to bitch... pretty much about anything. Those who want to sell etc... I guess superstars... although if you choose to play jazz... that might be an oxymoron in almost every way.

I personally enjoy the conversations, the BS etc... but I'm not really looking for anything. A break from playing gigs, I do want guitarist to develop better musicianship, and generally try and give advice and info. that will, from more than just personal opinion.

I think we've killed this thread... so in key of Db... say a little Db6/9 to Ab13sus bluesy swing groove at around mm 120

...Ab Db Eb / Gb F.... Ab Db Eb / Gb F Eb F.... the parties... over... it's time to call it a day...

[DaveWoods]

I hear you, and know exactly what you mean. For me, I just play, and know it's what I'm hearing. A parallel would be when you talk, do you know what you're saying and feeling? Let me also say, that it's like focusing a lens. Some days it's more in focus than others. Distractions can flip it in and out of focus. Thinking within will interrupt it. Both "that sucked" or "wow! that was great! will torpedo you. Doubt, will weaken you. Believe it or not, paying close attention to your inner self as you're talking and interacting with others will help you to understand what it is.

[Reg]

Hahaha... I like that lens analogy, so true.

[christianm77]

The way I've always approached self education is to listen to all the the contradictory stuff people say, and see if I can spot patterns - the stuff that reinforces while the random noise cancels out.

The patterns are where the gold is I think. I enjoy forums for that.

Like - some people say 'use scales' others say 'ignore scales' but everyone agrees - you must hear what you play, you must transcribe at least a bit, and listen attentively to music. Singing is certainly a useful tool (most musicians I know communicate via singing - I don't mean like professionals singers - they sing tunes, licks etc) but it seems not necessary to develop a good ear....

Anyway, it's quite a slow way of going about things, but I feel I've kind of built up some sort of understanding that develops over time.

[DaveWoods]

Hey man! I liked your clip better than Obergs playing. He's like listening to tinsel on a Christmas tree. So he can spray "Look Ma no hands!!" licks all over the fret board like slinging chicken feed, so what. All of it sounds like stuff he's manufactured, and played a thousand times. Again... so what. Let me hear more of your stuff. Dave Woods

[snoskier63]

If a dude says he or she is playing what they hear more power to them. I have enough trouble with my own playing to worry about how others think they are playing. As a kid I took lessons from Eddie Hazzel, a great jazz guitarist, and possibly the first to vocalize what he was playing. In fact, John Pizzarelli, who grew up in the same north Jersey area as I did, and in which Eddie Hazzel grew up as well in the 30's and 40's, was likely influenced to a large degree by Eddie and his style. While John tends to vocalize the same notes he is playing, and Eddie often vocalized in harmony with what he played, I would never presume to say one is or was better than the other simply due to that alone. They both play(ed) the crap out of their instruments, and both have my utmost respect. The only area in which Eddie might get more of my respect than all others, except for perhaps Tal Farlow, is that he chose to stay at home and work the NYC/NJ area so that he could see his kids grow up instead of constantly being on the road and missing all of that. For that career sacrifice most on this site have likely never heard of Eddie. Everybody has their thing, and if it lets them sleep at night and doesn't interfere with my sleep (which very little does) it's all good. Okay, I'm off of my soapbox now.

[destinytot]

I'm firmly in the 'play-what-you-hear' camp.

For me, that means developing conscious control of both the aesthetic and the functional aspects of playing; playing only what I love, and knowing why I love it.

On the other hand, it means having a limited range of resources.

And yet, applied with sensitivity and flexibility, I think the most limited range of musical vocabulary resources can be advantageous when it comes to expression - though this will depend entirely on the desired effect, or what one is trying to achieve, and a matter of personal choice. The Tortoise and the Hare <em>

I think musical taste should never be taught - that's a form of tyranny - but it does need to be developed.

'Playing what you hear' is a way to consolidate a style. "Each heart vibrates to that iron string." (From Ralph Waldo Emerson's SELF-RELIANCE.)

Technique then becomes a question of attaining mechanical advantage in the pursuit of that style. And the journey becomes... fun!

[destinytot]

Hey man! I liked your clip better than Obergs playing.

+1

[pingu]

i think its a matter of tempo ...

If i bring the tempo right down I can sometimes get the notes from my ear
straight onto the guitar (this is mainly just line cliches admittedly ... not some amazing creative new shit)
however this still feels great and true/real when/if it happens ...

med tempo , not so much (working on it , getting better)

up tempo .... hopeless ... I just play arpeggio type licks on auto mode

[pingu]

If i bring the tempo right down I can sometimes get the notes from my ear
straight onto the guitar
this feels great when it happens

and every note I get 'wrong' (ie play a note
that wasn't the one i was hearing)
is a DOUBLE bad ie
1 it is not the right note ... aaargh
2 it IS the wrong note .... aaaargh 2

One wrong note (kinda two actually) can really eff up the flow ...

then I get into all the judgemental
head trip bs
anyone else get this ?