Dude says - I play what I hear

[christianm77]

BTW - I do a lot of work in early/trad styles of jazz including gypsy jazz and there are a lot of people how get on their high horse about 'authenticity' - I used to be one, to my shame.

A musician who can play and has an interest in that specific type of music will work it out themselves if you give them a chance. While you can advise people about stylistic elements and so on when you are working with them, this is mostly pure pretentiousness.

You get the same pretentiousness from insecure people in any sub-sector of jazz/music/life, but I quite enjoy collecting examples.

This video sums it up best

[pauln]

If you don't hear what you are about to play in your head, where is the quality control of what you play?

When you hear what you actually played, don't you need to have something (like, what you wanted it to sound like in your head) with which to compare it?

If you are not comparing what you heard yourself play to what you wanted to hear, how do you confirm that what you heard yourself play was what you intended to play?

Certainly all will agree that as far as rhythm is concerned, you listen and play, and plan your notes rhythmically in your head to suit their placement in the tempo you are about to actually hear... and employ a quality control of comparison between what you intended and what you executed in order to maintain tempo.

Why is it such a question that the same thing applies to melodic and harmonic aspects of playing as well?

[ecj]

I've never understood why anyone is impressed by the ability to sing along with your lines. I thought everyone could do it.

It's hard to sound good (vocal range and all that), but I've never had any trouble humming along with what I'm picking.

Are there really folks that can't do it?

[Reg]

So we disagree... now what. Maybe you might be reading way more into the thread than what's implied.

Pretentiousness from insecurities... wow.

Man, I sure can't hear what he's sayin.

[Vladan]

BTW - I do a lot of work in early/trad styles of jazz including gypsy jazz and there are a lot of people how get on their high horse about 'authenticity' - I used to be one, to my shame. ...This video sums it up best ....

Jazz robots rule (cartoons).

[christianm77]

So we disagree... now what. Maybe you might be reading way more into the thread than what's implied.

Pretentiousness from insecurities... wow.

Man, I sure can't hear what he's sayin.

Not quite following you there. Was that in response to my post?

In any case.... if we disagree, we must of course fight!!!!!!!!! Swords or pistols?

[3625]

Sounds like the 'debunking' thing is in response largely to pretentious people. Pretentious people will be pretentious about anything. If your man in the OP was a self-styled 'great reader' or 'theorist' he would probably need debunking on that.

On the other hand, if he was just sharing something that had worked out for him, I think that's totally fair. That said, why share it unless you were teaching it or giving advice to a colleague who solicited it? Sounds like what we in the UK call 'defensive bollocks' to me.

I don't think anyone is arguing that learning to play (at least largely) by ear is a bad thing.

So we disagree... now what. Maybe you might be reading way more into the thread than what's implied.

Pretentiousness from insecurities... wow.

Man, I sure can't hear what he's sayin.

Not quite following you there. Was that in response to my post?

In any case.... if we disagree, we must of course fight!!!!!!!!! Swords or pistols?

I was initially a bit confused by Christian's post, but overall I think he meant the 'dude in the studio' from PP's starting post was pretentious. That right Christian? (Actually it was never clear cut if the 'dude' was talking himself up - a careful reading of the post showed all he did was shrug his shoulders lol).

But the 'defensive bollocks' thing threw me a bit - because that could be interpreted towards anyone volunteering advice on this thread. I don't think I've been pretentious or insecure the whole time and neither has Reg or others offering their advice on this (including Christian's earlier posts...). But I think this is a case of wires being crossed and going a bit too far off topic.

[pamosmusic]

Most seem to use singing to help with their phrasing and articulations. Not all music wants to sound like a voice and be phrased in a vocal style. You might want to understand what phrasing and articulations are.

You can put vocal phrasing and articulations on anything, just like you can sing or try and sing anything, but maybe you might be missing the point of what the solo is about.

I think a little elaboration might be in order ... what are phrasing and articulations? Regardless of what they are wouldn't you say their application is probably a process unique to different people? And what would the point of a solo be?

Genuinely curious ...

[christianm77]

I was initially a bit confused by Christian's post, but overall I think he meant the 'dude in the studio' from PP's starting post was pretentious. That right Christian? (Actually it was never clear cut if the 'dude' was talking himself up - a careful reading of the post showed all he did was shrug his shoulders lol).

But the 'defensive bollocks' thing threw me a bit - because that could be interpreted towards anyone volunteering advice on this thread. I don't think I've been pretentious or insecure the whole time and neither has Reg or others offering their advice on this (including Christian's earlier posts...). But I think this is a case of wires being crossed and going a bit too far off topic.

Well put.

I'm sorry if my post wasn't entirely clear. That said, it's not always possible to see how one's posts might be taken the wrong way.

Volunteering advice on a web forum certainly wouldn't be a case of the dreaded DB. Why would I be posting myself if I thought that? :-)

Back on to topic:
TBH if the studio guy wasn't talking himself, I'm not sure I see what the issue is.

I think we are all in agreement that working on ones ears is a Good Thing. That said I also think we've established that not all the top players hear every single pitch they play, although some may well do this. The voice is a popular tool to develop ear playing, but it's not the only way to do it.

I think it's also pretty clear from posts and my own experience that singing along with your lines does not necessarily mean you 'play what you hear', while singing the line first and then playing what you sing is a different process is entirely.

[mr. beaumont]

I think a little elaboration might be in order ... what are phrasing and articulations? Regardless of what they are wouldn't you say their application is probably a process unique to different people? And what would the point of a solo be?

Genuinely curious ...

Not Reg, but I'll take a stab, since I think I get what he was going for...

Phrasing and articulations...think of musical statements as sentences...there's sound, there's space. It starts on different beats, ends on different beats, lasts for an indeterminate number of beats. Interesting phrasing can do wonders in building an interesting solo...

Articulation refers to the way things are played, or accented...an eigth note figure with slurs versus all picked...straight eighths versus swing eighths with accents...that kind of stuff.

As far as the purpose of a solo, it's different for every tune, every playing situation. Sometimes a perfect solo spot is a restatement of the melody....sometimes a bluesy grind with doublestops....sometimes a romp through eighths at 300 bpm....sometimes a blast of noise...So thinking vocally might only satisfy the role of a solo in some situations.

I still think it's a great way, the best way, to start working on playing what you hear. But we don't always hear a voice in our heads...eventually we can work on translating those sounds too.

[christianm77]

And then of course you have the converse which is singers singing the 'non vocal stuff.' Classic example would be I guess:

[Reg]

Yea OK... If I offended or miss someones point... sorry, disclaimer, just like I make mistakes when I play what I hear, I also make mistakes when I think I understand what I read. (although christanm77's dueling swords thing brings to mind cool images)

Hey Pamosmusic...

"I think a little elaboration might be in order ... what are phrasing and articulations? Regardless of what they are wouldn't you say their application is probably a process unique to different people? And what would the point of a solo be?"

Phrasing, really, OK Generally in music... the notes you perform are organized into groups of connected sounds. That part of how organized is where it gets a little complicated.

Some examples could be,
-the note grouping or phrase should be able to stand on it's own.
-limited to one breath,(thats where the breathing concept comes into play)
-*** conveys a musical thought
- harmonic, melodic and rhythmic cadence organization

So somewhat simple version... your trying to express a concept, and you use Phrasing and Articulations to help shape this concept. The phrasing is the length and how you organize the notes, the articulations are how you perform the notes.

Generally what makes musicians recognizable on their instruments is their phrasing... and maybe even more noticable is their Tone quality, their feel of time. Rhythmic organization can shape phrasing almost stronger than the basic singing qualities.

Personally I view the singing aspects of playing as somewhat of a learning device. Like training wheels, it somewhat naturally organized your playing from it's limitations and natural tendencies.

I view myself as a rhythm section player... my phrasing and articulations are generally much more groove organized, use of rhythm and articulations, almost in a non vocal application.

But of course... yea, I can hear and understand what I'm playin. That is the point,

[Patrick2]

I've never understood why anyone is impressed by the ability to sing along with your lines. I thought everyone could do it.

It's hard to sound good (vocal range and all that), but I've never had any trouble humming along with what I'm picking.

Are there really folks that can't do it?

Yeah . . exactly. In fact, when I hear people do it, Benson, Pizzarelli . . etc., my first impression is . . "so what?" IMO, [most of the time] it's basically performance theater . . . meant to impress those who aren't musicians and who don't understand just how easy it really is. I actually think it sometimes gets in the way of guys who try it but aren't quite as good at it as Benson or Pizzarelli.

But, to your point . .scatting in unison to what you're playing, is as simple as just knowing what the next note you're going to sing sounds like. Like yourself, I'm a singer. Perhaps unlike yourself, I'm by far a better vocalist than I'll ever be as a guitarist. So, what I like to do sometimes, as a challenge to myself, is to sing harmony lines . . sometimes in 3rds, sometimes in 5ths . . along with the lines I'm improvising. To me THAT'S hearing it. Hearing the corrosponding intervals to the notes you're about to play, them plaing them both simultaniously.

[Reg]

That's good exercise Patrick, I remember as a kid playing Handel and other piano BS I would always practice in 3rds or 6ths, made lessons a little more interesting.

The skill is actually very usable playing gigs. That's pretty much how I play many heads when there is a sax or Tpt on gig. One of us usually harmonizes the melody. Or with a little practice you'll be able to transpose also... very useful skill for live performance... vocalist and when instrumentalist can only play tunes in one key, and it's not the key the charts in.

Of course... if you can play what's in your head.... you don't need no chart, right.

[christianm77]

Yeah . . exactly. In fact, when I hear people do it, Benson, Pizzarelli . . etc., my first impression is . . "so what?" IMO, [most of the time] it's basically performance theater . . . meant to impress those who aren't musicians and who don't understand just how easy it really is. I actually think it sometimes gets in the way of guys who try it but aren't quite as good at it as Benson or Pizzarelli.

I do scat my lines, quite unconsciously.

Quite a few jazz guitarists I know do the same.

I think it can sound good when you are dead on the pitch, which isn't so easy.

Lage Lund pointed out that he chose not to do this himself as he wanted to be aware of everything that was going on in the band when he was playing a solo, and felt singing his lines got in the way of this. But he pointed many of his favourite players sing their lines, so he couldn't say it was a bad thing.

I remember reading in Effortless Mastery that singing one's lines could be related to performance anxiety (or something? Maybe someone could pin that reference down....

[christianm77]

Yeah . . exactly. In fact, when I hear people do it, Benson, Pizzarelli . . etc., my first impression is . . "so what?" IMO, [most of the time] it's basically performance theater . . . meant to impress those who aren't musicians and who don't understand just how easy it really is. I actually think it sometimes gets in the way of guys who try it but aren't quite as good at it as Benson or Pizzarelli.

But, to your point . .scatting in unison to what you're playing, is as simple as just knowing what the next note you're going to sing sounds like. Like yourself, I'm a singer. Perhaps unlike yourself, I'm by far a better vocalist than I'll ever be as a guitarist. So, what I like to do sometimes, as a challenge to myself, is to sing harmony lines . . sometimes in 3rds, sometimes in 5ths . . along with the lines I'm improvising. To me THAT'S hearing it. Hearing the corrosponding intervals to the notes you're about to play, them plaing them both simultaniously.

Your post also made me think of this:]

IIRC Hunter cut his teeth playing on the street?

[Reg]

Ahhh, yea Charlie's very cool, that would be the groove scat thing. I see him on and off... he tours. I guess there also might be that feeling thing you can get from vocal noise when feeling that funky jazz groove thing.

Hey Christianm77 where are you... Charlie, Bobby, these are fellow local musicians that I see once in a while... Charlie's performing in a simi new dinner/club in Oakland tonight, I also gig there sometimes.

[mr. beaumont]

Now I'm thinking about Lionel Loueke too...

[christianm77]

Ahhh, yea Charlie's very cool, that would be the groove scat thing. I see him on and off... he tours. I guess there also might be that feeling thing you can get from vocal noise when feeling that funky jazz groove thing.

Hey Christianm77 where are you... Charlie, Bobby, these are fellow local musicians that I see once in a while... Charlie's performing in a simi new dinner/club in Oakland tonight, I also gig there sometimes.

That sounds great... I'm in the wrong country though - the UK :-)

[Stevebol]

Scatting should be illegal- unless you're James Brown.
OK, I'm kidding. If you think it will make you better it probably will. Go for it.

[Stevebol]

I have no idea what 'I play what I hear' means. I play but ear but these days I check out chords from charts a lot. It's just faster.

[pamosmusic]

.... I do know what articulation and phrasing are .... I was asking for an elaboration because "you might want to understand what phrasing and articulation are" and "you might be missing the point of soloing" seemed like pretty hefty things to be tossing around so I wanted to know how you might define phrasing or articulation or determine the point of playing a solo to get a little insight into why you thought others might need to re-evaluate their own positions. I actually agree with all the things you said about articulation and I think that they're all very important for a solo... I think the point of improvising is to communicate and actual words are only a fraction of how we communicate ... articulation, timbre, rhythm, volume, pacing... so mastery of all those things would be pretty crucial to communicating effectively. Vocalizing as I play is a way that I tap into some of those things - if it doesn't work for you then that's delightful but I do it all the time. Doesn't make it better and I have other ways that I work on them too but it certainly is valid for working on some of those things in a sort of fluid, subconscious way.

Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying ... ah well.

[christianm77]

Scatting should be illegal- unless you're James Brown.

I couldn't help myself officer. It's a fair cop.

[christianm77]

I have no idea what 'I play what I hear' means. I play but ear but these days I check out chords from charts a lot. It's just faster.

I like to try and work out the chords by ear and then look at charts. There are sometimes differences. Most of the time I've missed something, but occasionally the charts are wrong.

Also for standards, it's good to know the main variations of the changes that get played. Checking out different recordings is a quick way of doing this. (Jazzstandards.com is great for tracking down the important recordings.)

Depends on the music though. Standards I hear OK, can pick up changes on a gig without a chart for some stuff. More contemporary/fusion harmony is much harder for me, which is fine as a learning process but not much use if I'm expected to know the tunes for a gig next Friday.

While as a gigging player I do many things to make stuff 'faster' - write charts, read charts, glance at lead sheets for tunes I don't know, I'm pretty suspicious about things that are 'faster.' I might be missing out on something on the way :-)

If you can hear the changes right away first time without the chart, that is quickest. You might need to do some work to get to that level :-) There's a guy in London for example who never used a real book, just flat refused. He's one of the top guys now, but it must have taken some serious bloody mindedness to get through the first couple of years...

[christianm77]

BTW - has anyone spent some time doing the famous exercise where you select a random Aebersold, drop in at a random point and make yourself solo over it by ear? I'm thinking I should probably do that.