"Bluesy" Soloing over "Non-Bluesy" Jazz Standards

[Greentone]

Here's Joe Pass playing "Relaxin at the Camarillo" by Parker, on an album released not long after finished _his_ stint in rehab. (Parker's rehab was at Camarillo) It, too, is a major blues:

[edh]

JazzOnSix, thanks for the analysis.

[dasein]

did someone say Oscar Peterson and the blues?

Oscar makes me sick because he copies everybody. He even had to learn how to play the blues. Everybody knows that if you flat a third, you're going to get that blues sound. He learned that and runs it into the ground worse than Billy Taylor. You don't have to do that.Now take the way he plays that song. That's not what Clifford meant. He passes right over what can be done with the chords. It's much prettier if you get into it and heard the chords weaving in and out like Bill Evans and Red Garland could do – instead of being so heavy. Oscar is jazzy; he jazzes up the tune. And he sure has devices, like certain scale patterns, that he plays all the time.
Does he swing hard like some people say? I don't know what they mean when they say 'swing hard' anyway. Nearly everything he plays, he plays with the same degree of force. He leaves no holes for the rhythm section. The only thing I ever heard him play that I liked was his first record of "Tenderly."
I love Ray Brown. As for Herb Ellis, I don't like that kind of thing with guitar on every beat – unless you play it like Freddie Green does now. You listen and you'll hear how much Green has lightened his sound through the years. If you want to see how it feels with a heavy guitar, get up to play sometimes with one of them behind you. He'll drive you nuts.
Back to Oscar. He plays pretty good when he plays in an Art Tatum form of ballad approach. And I heard him once play some blues once at a medium tempo that sounded pretty good. But for playing like that with a guitar, I prefer Nat Cole. I feel though that it's a waste to use a guitar this way. If you take the guitar and have him play lines – lines like George Russell, or Gil Evans or John Lewis could make – then a trio can sound wonderful.

[JazzOnSix]

did someone say Oscar Peterson and the blues?

Absolutely. Oscar Peterson was the blues personified as a jazz pianist. Those well-documented, disparaging comments were from an ancient 1958 Miles Davis interview with Nat Hentoff for The Jazz Review. They have been debunked by a number of notable jazz artists and journalists. Sad to say, there was a dark side to Miles, who often came across as angry, bitter and even jealous at times in discussing fellow players. In this case he had already made up his mind about a rising star who was still in his 20's when that story broke. I've thought that maybe it had something to do with OP's association with Norman Granz and the JATP, but that's just speculation on my part.

Having said that, perhaps some of the criticism is legit, but to take a shot at Oscar for copying is ridiculous. Miles copied. So did Bird, Trane, Dizzy and a host of others, including guitarists like Wes, Benson, Pass and Davis' own chosen piano player during his epic 60's run, Herbie Hancock (who said he couldn't even play the blues).

On a personal note, my dad was a great jazz trombonist and when it came to big band leaders, his favorite was Count Basie. For small jazz ensembles it was Miles Davis, and yes.. for pianists it was Oscar Peterson and his famous trio. Those were the sounds (among others) that I heard while growing up and I feel blessed to have learned from all of them.

[TOMMO]

Great thread! So maybe I can weave some of my 40 years blues playing into my (still developing and non existing) jazz playing!

[MarkRhodes]

Mark a little more on this would be appreciated. especially the "no 7ths" thing. maybe use a 6th instead?

Thanks for asking that question!

[MarkRhodes]

.. for pianists it was Oscar Peterson and his famous trio. Those were the sounds (among others) that I heard while growing up and I feel blessed to have learned from all of them.

Mark Stefani, which of the guitarists who worked with Oscar Peterson did you enjoy most? (I'm not saying which was better---they were all first-rate or they would never have gotten that gig--but which one you enjoyed hearing most with Oscar.) For me, it was Herb Ellis, hands down.

Might as well add a track from YouTube.... 'Swingin' On A Star" from the "A Night In Stratford" recording.

[MarkRhodes]

For something a little greasier, but still a five-chord, major blues, try soloing over Jimmy Smith, Grady Tate, Stanley Turrentine and Kenny Burrell on The Jumpin Blues (in "C"):

I love Jimmy Smith. I started listening to his stuff because of the guitarists he used---esp Kenny Burrell and Wes---but I came to realize he was an absolute monster in his own right.

[MarkRhodes]

Sure thing. The idea when using major blues, especially over multiple changes, is to use note choices that will complement the other chords. For instance, if you're improvising over changes in the key of C, the b7 (Bb) can fight you at times when used over the II, III and IV chords, whereas the 6th that you refer to is a "glue note" and one (like the 2nd) not found in minor pentatonic/blues scales. The maj7 (B) is sweet but can distract from the purpose of interjecting blues into the mix..

Great stuff, Mark Stefani! Thanks. So glad you're hanging out here now! You have so much to offer and you explain things in a natural, conversational way. Lucky us!

[JazzOnSix]

Mark Stefani, which of the guitarists who worked with Oscar Peterson did you enjoy most? (I'm not saying which was better---they were all first-rate or they would never have gotten that gig--but which one you enjoyed hearing most with Oscar.) For me, it was Herb Ellis, hands down.

I'd have to agree, despite my appreciation for the others. Besides his love for the blues and hard swing, Herb had such a storied history with OP. That was well-chronicled in the "Music In the Key of Oscar" video, along with the birth of the JATP concert series produced by Norman Granz and all of the later Pablo releases (primarily featuring Joe Pass on guitar).

As you might know and on a related note, I've been writing for Just Jazz Guitar for over 12 years. During that time period, beyond my lesson columns and articles I've had the honor and privilege of conducting 8 cover story interviews. One of them that I thoroughly enjoyed was with Ulf Wakenius when he was Oscar's guitarist. Ed Benson gave me the green light to share some of the stories, which I intend to do here before long. All in good time.

Back to Herb, one of my favorite Oscar/Ellis collaborations was the "Hello Herbie" reunion recorded in 1969. Among other tracks was their spirited version of Montgomery's Naptown Blues, a riff-based swing blues that I've played and taught for many years. With that in mind, here's another YouTube blast from the past:

[MarkRhodes]

Back to Herb, one of my favorite Oscar/Ellis collaborations was the "Hello Herbie" reunion recorded in 1969. Among other tracks was their spirited version of Montgomery's Naptown Blues, a riff-based swing blues that I've played and taught for many years. With that in mind, here's another YouTube blast from the past:

Thanks, man! I hadn't heard that version before. Herb's in fine form.

[rintincop]

My thinking is that throughout his career B.B. King has intuitively used a hybrid of both the minor and major blues scales.

Like in C he can mix:

C major ("Happy Blues Scale") C D D# E G A (appropriate on the I7 and V7, NOT the IV7)
C minor blues: C Eb F F# G Bb (appropriate on IV7, I7, and V7)

He will even sometimes use a major 3rd on a minor blues, his articulation, pitch bending and shear will power of feeling makes it effective. He sounds like he is intentionally going "outside" to me.

You may freely mix the two when appropriate (but avoid E on F7)

The leading tone is also used by blues masters... Bb to B to C as passing tones for example... they also use chromatic embellishment, weaving a few notes, and a lot of pitch bending of course.

One of my favorite guitar moments with B.B., "Gambler's Blues" (1967 Live in Chicago). I love how he pauses to switch off the Reverb, then comes back and really ramps up his dramatic soaring lines for the second guitar chorus.

[Reg]

Wow... another very common aspect of playing in a jazz style, that I brought up when I first joined this forum begins to come to life...

So Jazzonsix... nice take on one use of Blue Notes.

I'm thinking your comments are about a melodic approach... not really dealing with the blues harmonic things.

How to use blue notes with respect to the basic implied chords, which is more useful with non jazz players, (Jazz players generally have harmonic references for use of blue notes). No right or wrong, just different organization of usage and sources for blue notes.

Where one can camouflage the use of blue notes, in key of C, over a Cmaj7 chord... use the b3 or Eb followed by E, or that same b3 or Eb followed by D, or the same treatment of the b7 or Bb followed by either B the Maj7th or A the 6th... where they almost function as one note... a lick... personally this is still somewhat a rock blues application, again no right or wrong. Just personally not really a jazz application of blue notes.

To begin to understand and use blue notes in more of a jazz style, you need more that grace note or ornamentation types of applications for blue notes... again, personally... I believe you need harmonic applications which organize the blue notes which is what basically creates a bluesy sound for soloing and comping.... what makes a showy straight standard become a hip jazz tune, ( of course there's a little more involved.... modal concepts, modal interchange and Melodic Min.), but staying with the bluesy thing.

So using harmonic concepts can be as easy as using... altered V chords approaching whatever the target chord is. The chord implies what the melody note is... right, key of C... Cmaj7.... that Bb is a b7 or blue note, right. It's very difficult to talk about what notes are without harmonic reference... what the notes are in reference to a chord.

Anyway so one of the simplest harmonic concepts when playing jazz is using related V7 chords... V7 chords establish the tonal target and creating harmonic motion, again very basic jazz performance concept.

So using altered V chord... G7alt. in this basic jazz harmonic concept of performance.... The #9 of G7alt...or Bb is the b7 of Cmaj7... and the b13 or Eb of G7alt is the b3 of Cmaj7... the basic blue notes of the target Cmaj7 chord.

When you use the Blue notes in this manor to help create bluesy sound...you can use a harmonic concept to organize your usage... it will also help you have other melodic notes with an organized concept of usage as compared to random ornamentational usage... which takes lots of trial and error.... lots of practice to get a handle on... many time players never do...

So using V chords is one method... use your head, there are many more, and they also take practice and time to be able to hear and use...

[MarkRhodes]

One of my favorite guitar moments with B.B., "Gambler's Blues" (1967 Live in Chicago). I love how he pauses to switch off the Reverb, then comes back and really ramps up his dramatic soaring lines for the second guitar chorus.

Great performance, thanks for posting that. B.B. is one of my favorites and he was in his heyday then.

[Greentone]

Two great performances by two of my very favorite guitarists...and people...ever. I knew HE. He was a humble, intelligent guy. Man, could he play. He was just bristling with music. He tended to be underestimated by some guitarists, later on, who figured that Pass bopped harder. Well...Pass was pretty incredible. If you asked HIM, though, who some of the top jazz creators were, he would invariably name Ellis in that group. That performance of Naptown Blues is pretty hot.

BB King is another guy who is a humble individual with gobs of talent. Man, in '67 I don't think too many guys would have wanted to share a stage with him. He was capable of lifting an audience right out of the room, back then. I got to see him at different points in his career. Even ten years ago he was still bringing it. He has slowed down, these days, but I'd pay just to see him sit there on stage, at this point. Hell, he doesn't even have to play.

Thanks for the posts.

[JazzOnSix]

Hey Guys,

Speaking of The King and favorite players, anyone ever hear the live date recorded at the Bottomline (NY) in 1978 for King Biscuit Flower Hour Records?



It was recorded over two nights. On the first night Johnny and Edgar Winter sat in with him, and on the second night it was George Benson's turn to join him on stage for 26 minutes of blowing. If you've never heard it, well.. it's pretty special.

I couldn't find either of the two tracks with GB on YouTube (even under "Greatest Hits Live"), so I uploaded them to share with you:

I Got Some Help I Don't Need

Just A Little Love

Listen carefully to B.B. announcing to the crowd that Mr. and Mrs. George Benson is in the house, and that the next tune would be dedicated to them. Right before the band starts to play you'll hear GB say, "I want to play one with you!"

What happens next is magic, and the more they play together the more the King rises to the occasion. Two of my greatest guitar heroes and influences, and it sounds like I'm not alone. All for now..

[MarkRhodes]

Hey Guys,

Speaking of The King and favorite players, anyone ever hear the live date recorded at the Bottomline (NY) in 1978 for King Biscuit Flower Hour Records?

Listen carefully to B.B. announcing to the crowd that Mr. and Mrs. George Benson is in the house, and that the next tune would be dedicated to them. Right before the band starts to play you'll hear GB say, "I want to play one with you!"

What happens next is magic, and the more they play together the more the King rises to the occasion. Two of my greatest guitar heroes and influences, and it sounds like I'm not alone. All for now..

Great stuff, Mark! Thanks so much. I'd never heard this and likely never would have! Wow, what an unexpected and satisfying treat.

[JazzOnSix]

Great stuff, Mark! Thanks so much. I'd never heard this and likely never would have! Wow, what an unexpected and satisfying treat.

No problem, Mark. Btw, thanks for the kind words regarding my recent contributions here. That means a lot to me. Many years ago a student gave me a cassette tape of that album, because he knew how much I loved the blues and what a fan I was of both players. When I saw that it was available on CD, I jumped on it.

Speaking of treats and getting back to our favorite OP guitarist, here's an Ellis II-V-I lick that I transcribed from the same Naptown Blues track on Hello Herbie:



It's one of many licks from the Jazz Language sub-series in my Swing Blues: Doorway to Jazz course. The only thing to keep in mind is that the original is in the key of F (Gm7 to C7 - I believe it's in bar 9 of Herb's 2nd chorus) instead of the key of C. To match Ellis either move the example up to the 10th fret or change string sets so that the starting pitch is the C at the 8th fret.

I also modified the line slightly to end on the 5th of the key, making it more suitable for non-blues tunes. In the recorded version Herb added the 6th and ended on the high root, perfect for blues.