Diagonal Scale Fingerings

[MarkRhodes]

The following video was posted in another thread and I thought it might be useful to some here.

Also, I hope that some who are already familiar with this approach will have things to add.

[markf]

good lesson thanks

[edh]

I like that. Thanks for the link.

[MarkRhodes]

You're welcome, guys.

[klk]

well, now i feel sort of stupid-- i've always done my scales that way. my teachers made me learn each scale across the full span of the instrument.

most of my arpeggios the same. i always thought it was a standard practice for all instruments?

[MarkRhodes]

well, now i feel sort of stupid-- i've always done my scales that way. my teachers made me learn each scale across the full span of the instrument.

most of my arpeggios the same. i always thought it was a standard practice for all instruments?

I think part of the purpose of this is to make playing the guitar more like playing some other instruments---where you have the same fingering from octave to octave. I learned 3-notes-per-string scales a long time ago but there is more to this lesson than just that. It's the attempt to keep the fingering consistent to make for more fluid playing.

But hey, if you already got this, good for you!

I wonder about things other than scales because I'm not really a scale player. I think of chord shapes more than of scales.

[srlank]

I think that this concept works great with arpeggios as well. For example play a major arpeggio starting on the 6th string. When you hit the octave on the 4th string you can play the same shape and it takes you up the neck. You can use different fingers at the octave, depending on which direction you want to go. Sliding is helpful as well, like was displayed in the video.

[srlank]

I love this topic. Here is Morten who is a master at this (among other things) utilizing this concept with chromatics.

[bako]

Here's a consistent 3 octave fingerings using a shift instead of a slide.

---------------------------------------------------------------7--8-10--**--12--14--15-------------
--------------------------------------------5--7--*--8--10-------------------------------------------
----------------------------------4--5--7---------------------------------------------------------
------------------2--4-*--5--7---------------------------------------------------------------------
--------2--3--5----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-3--5-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Each octave begins on the 2nd finger.
* indicates a shift to the 2nd finger and ** to the 1st

[GuyBoden]

Good stuff, I practice a lot of similar 3 note per string type practice routines, I have an easy routine for this:

1. I take any scale.

2. Select any note from the scale.

3. Shift position when you play the selected note.

(When descending you have to shift position when you play the "Selected" note plus 1 note)


Simple example using F Major.

Ascending C as the shift position note.
F G A
Bb C D E
F G A
Bb C D E
F G A
Bb C D E


Descending D as the shift position note.
E D C Bb
A G F
E D C Bb
A G F
E D C Bb
A G F

[MarkRhodes]

I think that this concept works great with arpeggios as well. For example play a major arpeggio starting on the 6th string. When you hit the octave on the 4th string you can play the same shape and it takes you up the neck. You can use different fingers at the octave, depending on which direction you want to go. Sliding is helpful as well, like was displayed in the video.

Thanks (and also thanks for the Morten video you posted next.)

Do you see an advantage of this that you keep the shape consistent? I remember reading in Mimi Fox's book on arpeggios on jazz standards (-a very good book and she's a great player) that she suggested playing the lines many different ways to achieve 'maximal freedom.' That obviously works for her but one think I notice when watching people play "Gypsy Jazz" is that they use some of the same shapes over and over. I think it's more efficient to work that way. (God knows I need all the help I can get to be efficient on the guitar!)

This may interest you. (I found this yesterday when searching for 'diagonal fingerings' on Google).


Diagonal arpeggios 6 and m7 - Gypsy Jazz Guitar Wiki

[GuyBoden]

Good stuff, I practice a lot of similar 3 note per string type practice routines, I have an easy routine for this:

1. I take any scale.

2. Select any note from the scale.

3. Shift position when you play the selected note.

(When descending you have to shift position when you play the "Selected" note plus 1 note)


Simple example using F Major.

Ascending C as the shift position note.
F G A
Bb C D E
F G A
Bb C D E
F G A
Bb C D E


Descending D as the shift position note.
E D C Bb
A G F
E D C Bb
A G F
E D C Bb
A G F

Playing the example I gave above, but using different scales/modes and selecting random notes of each scale/mode for shifting position, also has the advantage that you learn the name of notes, so you're not just playing patterns.

[Reg]

I'm pretty sure the final result or goal of the concept... is to be able to make smooth transitions between all position fingering... again the entire fretboard becomes one big position or grid.

Using slides, steps, chromatics... moving between positions with whatever technique you choose to use, depending on what sound or phrasing you hear or are trying to create.

Basically why I've always use the seven position fingerings as my default fingerings. The basic starting reference, you can still use different fingering patterns or lick patterns... but they all are in reference to my default seven positions.

Shouldn't really matter what organization of the notes you use.... scales arpeggios etc...

[MarkRhodes]

I'm pretty sure the final result or goal of the concept... is to be able to make smooth transitions between all position fingering... again the entire fretboard becomes one big position or grid..

I think we all want to feel "at home" wherever we are on the guitar.

For me, I am working on Benson picking and Benson, like Wes and many other great jazz players, tended to play "along the neck" rather than up and down in position. (I notice that "Gypsy Jazz" players tend to do this too.) One suggestion in the OP video is that you can keep consistent fingering as you move across the fingerboard. I think that makes for greater efficiency. Especially at brisk tempos. So for me, the idea of consistent fingerings across octaves means there is one less thing I need to think about when playing. That's nearly always a plus!

(On a side note, I recall Jimmy Bruno being picky about the fingerings of his five 'positions' and one point of that was to keep the same note---say, the 9th in a scale---fretted by the same finger in each octave.)

[GuyBoden]

I'm pretty sure the final result or goal of the concept... is to be able to make smooth transitions between all position fingering... again the entire fretboard becomes one big position or grid.

It's astonishing that players refuse to put in the practice time to learn the fretboard as a whole, it's not very difficult, it's just about being disciplined.

[klk]

this has been really interesting-- i did a quick google of 3-octave git scales and the videos i found all showed big awkward position jumps between segovia-type positions.

interesting-- i learned other instruments first, and my jazz texts were piano (mehegan) and horn (ricci). "Extend each scale and pattern to the full range of your instrument."

half-step slides are the least obtrusive, but i change up the fingering depending on which scale and which guitar.

one caveat is that on most archtops, that base string gets muddy as you move up the neck. another is that despite decades of doing scales this way, i'm like mark, and tend to orient myself vie chordal options.

i didn't see any examples of descending diagonals, so i'll post the g major. you folks prolly know this one already--

15
x12
xx9
xx10
xxx7
xxxx5
xxxx7
xxxxx3

god, i'm living in the stone age. i need too pick-up some transcription and staffing apps.

[MarkRhodes]

god, i'm living in the stone age. i need too pick-up some transcription and staffing apps.

Me too! I could use some. I've posted things where I wrote out something on manuscript, took a pic of it with a webcam and posted THAT. One of these days....

[MarkRhodes]

It's astonishing that players refuse to put in the practice time to learn the fretboard as a whole, it's not very difficult, it's just about being disciplined.

I agree this is important but I also think there is a difference between knowing it---say, being able to name any note that lights up of a computerized fretboard grid--- and having your FINGERS know their way around some some swift lines that span eight or more frets.

[bako]

Another fun class of scale fingerings incorporates open strings and never playing the same string twice in a row creating somewhat of a harp like effect.


-------------------------------------------------0-------3-------
------------------------------------0-------3-------7------------
----------------------------0-----------5------------------------
---------------0-------4-------7---------------------------------
----0------3-------7----------------------------------------------
-3-----7-----------------------------------------------------------

This approach works best for keys with the most open strings.

[GuyBoden]

I agree this is important but I also think there is a difference between knowing it---say, being able to name any note that lights up of a computerized fretboard grid--- and having your FINGERS know their way around some some swift lines that span eight or more frets.

The whole fretboard is made from the sum of smaller parts. I use this system, it works for me.

[GuyBoden]

The whole fretboard is made from the sum of smaller parts. I use this system, it works for me.

The above shows the child patterns that make one of the 7 parent patterns, the 7 parent patterns make the whole fretboard. These diagrams are for 7 string P4 symmetrical tuning, but it's based on common 3 notes per string finger patterns.

[srlank]

Thanks (and also thanks for the Morten video you posted next.)

Do you see an advantage of this that you keep the shape consistent? I remember reading in Mimi Fox's book on arpeggios on jazz standards (-a very good book and she's a great player) that she suggested playing the lines many different ways to achieve 'maximal freedom.' That obviously works for her but one think I notice when watching people play "Gypsy Jazz" is that they use some of the same shapes over and over. I think it's more efficient to work that way. (God knows I need all the help I can get to be efficient on the guitar!)

This may interest you. (I found this yesterday when searching for 'diagonal fingerings' on Google).


Diagonal arpeggios 6 and m7 - Gypsy Jazz Guitar Wiki

Apologies for being behind in my reply! I haven't been able to hang on JGF for the last few days.

I think that there are advantages to utilizing the same shape, as well as playing the octave off of any finger. That way a line can be shaped like I hear it in my head. Berklee fingerings are great for that, as well simply being able to play an arpeggio from any finger. The latter way takes a person out of position playing, though you can always have your default shapes as a basic underlying map. My basic template is 5 shapes/fingerings ala Martino, Bruno and Roberts. I also like Berklee which stems off of those 5 shapes, and more recently have been using 3 and 4 notes per string. I really like the 3 and 4 notes per string for running diagonally and for symmetrical articulations that can be incorporated.

Lately I have been really focusing primarily on arpeggios off of any finger, and I am enjoying the results.

[Nabil B]

So in essence, you only learn one shape for each arpeggio/scale and that´s all you need ? Is it really the approach used by benson, wes, green etc. like it is said in the video ?

[MarkRhodes]

So in essence, you only learn one shape for each arpeggio/scale and that´s all you need ? Is it really the approach used by benson, wes, green etc. like it is said in the video ?

That wasn't my take. It's more like learning to let the shapes move along the neck rather than up and down in one position...

[Patrick2]

That wasn't my take. It's more like learning to let the shapes move along the neck rather than up and down in one position...

I've always felt that knowing and understanding intervals, is key to a harmonic approach to creating jazz lines. I've also always felt that remaining true to a specific position, until you intentionally choose to leave that position by methodically connecting to the next one is critical in a sense of . . you've got to know where you are if you're going to determine where you're going. With fingerings which are based specifically upon knowing where the root of a chord is . . and upon whether the fingering will be based upon the 1st, 2nd or 4th finger hitting the root, the intervals and tensions will always be right there under your fingers. Then, it's a matter of tones leading up to connecting the dots.

I'm going to start messing with these diagonal fingering to see how they compare.