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Speaking as a Professional Video Producer and Editor... please don't make a video of slowly dissolving and scaling images that integrate with the music. It is a cheap visual distraction designed to elicit emotions. White text of title and composer on a black background is sufficient.
Originally Posted by targuit
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11-05-2014 05:13 PM
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.... forgot the links
Regardless of these "decent" solos, I cannot listen to charlie byrd for pleasure, & I understand where you're coming from; he's certainly no Lenny Breau.Last edited by Sti Eci Tephor; 11-05-2014 at 06:01 PM. Reason: boom
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By far not the best example of any of these players, but the poor ignorant audience seemed to really enjoy it.
Obviously they weren't hired by the local Jazz Police.
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I just like Charlie's phrasing here, especially in airmail special. I did say the vibe was, "some what terrible"...
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Jay - yes arrangement is important for music, but none if us are interested in that. We're only job retested in you showing you ability to improvise jazz and play your ass off. No one is interested in production quality or arrangements.
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Thanks to Alsoran for the encouragement and to Djangoles for the tech advice. Djangoles - I was thinking of putting in some of my wife's beautiful photos, though it may see hackneyed. But if I have problems scaling the images (more tech crap again - not my strength), I may take your advice. To see just the title page and Bruno Martino does not seem to do justice to the emotion in the music. In the past I think I used MP4 - I'm looking for decent sound quality. Also, because I truly hate to listen to good music through laptop speakers, I tend to create headphone mixes for fidelity - I use an ancient pair of Sony cans. You guys who know tech issues could probably speak more authoritatively on the validity of that, but I note that YT has improved, though it seems that many videos are at very loud levels to the detriment of their enjoyment. Anyway, is MP4 a good choice?
The guitar will probably be a bit over the top, just to show the improv side of things. I intend to record my old Yamaha nylon string. Vocals because the original song's lyrics are exquisitely beautiful. I speak Italian fluently and will provide my translation. To extend the length I will repeat the AABA or part of it to include extended instrumental part at the end. Like I said, perhaps a bit over the top. What I found when rehearsing the final revision of the arrangement is that the tempo is so critical. I recorded a version previously at a bossa or really beguine rhythm at 98 bpm, but I may record this slower so as to give me more space to improvise. The rehearsal stuff I did this morning revealed how much the song can be a chameleon, depending on the rhythm and tempo. I also wrote the "repeat" section of the AABA format in such a way that it varies from the original AABA, specifically the piano track. Remember that the purpose is not to deceive anyone into thinking it is a studio orchestra - the arrangement would be vastly better played by flesh-and-blood musicians. And playing to a strict click track, while a necessity in this situation, is never ideal. But the point is to show the possibilities. And I'll have to see if I can get the tempos of the Korg percussion and the Sibelius tracks to line up. This is something that bugs me, as I would think that a tempo of xy bpm should be the same in every format, though I don't always find that to be the case. If not, I'll go without the percussion. The final version is just one possible permutation, as I went through a couple of stylistic variations in rehearsal this morning. I really just threw this arrangement together within a matter of a few days.
Although this has been a diversion from the thread (sorry!), it does relate to the topic of backing tracks as providing a platform to improvise - a position I still advocate (sorry again). And I try to speak my opinions without attacking anyone's veracity or integrity. After you hear what I do, you may not think I am the incarnation of Joe Pass, but I don't think anyone will ask if I can play. LOL......This is going up - my real challenge is to get it up before my wife leaves her family and her Mother for probably the last time. It is a deeply tragic experience for all involved. This is my Valentine or parting word for my mother in law, her husband of over fifty years, and the extended family. That is really what this "production" is about. And it is also about arranging a back up track that does not sound totally canned. I hope the final result justifies my expectations and yours. The world is so filled with negativity and hate. But great music comes from another place. That is where I aim to go tonight, I hope. I don't have much time.
Jay
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Well, Henry, I guess that just leaves me interested in production quality and the arrangement - I think I mentioned I have this strong "perfectionist" streak, which is a real hassle sometimes. Impediment to putting things out unless you think it is pretty decent. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
As I said, after the run-throughs I did early this morning, I think the guitar playing will be a little over the top but with the purpose of showing what I can do. In other words less tasteful restraint than I might otherwise employ. You can be the judge. So what file type to convert wav. files to for a YT video with good fidelity, Henry, MP4?
Jay
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Mp4 is fine. Nobody cares about the format as long as it is audible.
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Aaron Parks released a trio recording that he recorded by setting his iPhone beside the piano. Just for a little *cough* perspective.
also in his "with strings" album, Paul Desmond preferred his group go into the studio without having heard the string arrangements. Kind of Blue was, I believe, recorded in a single session.
Arranging is incredibly important but no one gives two sh**s about your process. For that reason the excessive detailing of your progress on the project sounds like stalling. The appropriate response would be "it's coming along" ...
Just imagine your friend tells you to watch his new magic trick. You sit and wait patiently. He prepares. Twenty minutes later you're bored. He says just a minute ... I have to sort out this rigged deck of cards. You wait some more. Just a second im loading my hat w this stuffed rabbit... See the little trap door here ... Very tricky to operate. You wait some more ... Just a second I have to untangle this thirty foot long multi colored handkerchief it's trickier than it looks.
... By the time your friend performs the trick ... Not only are you annoyed by the wait... You've seen too much from behind the curtain and the magic is gone.
again... Just for perspective.
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Herb and Tal being two of my favourites, this was hard to watch. Nice rug, though. Originally Posted by Sti Eci Tephor
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Recorded by John and Alan Lomax using a hand-cranked acetate recorder at a crossroads Starbucks deep in the heart of the Mississippi Delta Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Videos like that are the bad side of everything being available forever thanks to youtube. I sure hope there's no young folks out there who watch this and write a guy like Tal off because of this performance. Its not fair to the legacy of great music he left us. Originally Posted by Jehu
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This is not going to end well. We are going to get a 5 min song with singing and elaborate instrumentation with a 20 sec guitar "improvisation".
You already made the backing track. Can't you just improvise over it and send the other one to your family?
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No - it is going to end very well!
I put the finishing touches on the tracks early this morning (I work on it between 3;30 and 6AM). I had to revise a section sequence. But it is done. This morning after getting my son to school I record the tracks onto the Korg. Then, record the vocal and the guitar live tracks. At that point I create the CD-R to transfer the wav. files into the PC computer. The files need to be turned into MP4 tracks and then into a "video" with a still photo or two. I wanted to do something classy like a simple black and white photo of a piano keyboard, but realized that someone already did that with an Andrea Bocelli version. And then finally upload to Youtube. I need today, maybe tomorrow. Don't forget I have to share this home PC with my teenage son, not to mention work, cook, clean.... Trust me, I get second in line. Give me a day or two. My son said he would 'edit the video' as he is more expert with YT video posting than I by far. But I have to get that ready. The actual 'video editing' should not take long as the only thing to match up is the photo(s) and the music recording.
I will be playing the guitar fingerstyle entirely without the pick (contrary to what I said before). I improvise throughout the entire song. I don't actually state the melody instrumentally as I will be singing the melody and lyrics until the last part which is pure instrumental, but the guitar improvises over the melody. As I said before, probably a little over the top. No comping - one live track. Same with the vocal and no autotune. In fact I will likely do little dynamic processing other than some soft compression when recording. I find it changes the soundstage too much and I have fairly nice acoustics in my living room. Maybe just a little delay to spread the stage a bit. The song is around 3 minutes or so.
I know you guys who are techies think it is ridiculous, but my problems are in that side of things, not the playing the music side. I need a live-in tech. Sorry to bore you with the process - maybe you all do these things regularly. I have not had the time and I don't now - I'm making the time.
JayLast edited by targuit; 11-06-2014 at 07:56 AM.
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Originally Posted by targuit
Perhaps I can offer a little tech advise (figure it is the cost of a ticket for this train wreck of a thread).
Sibalius is probably the wrong application for what you are trying to do. I would suggest looking into a program such as digital performer. It has the scoring functions, as well as audio and midi recording.... and literally everything else. It has been the choice of composers who score for films for like 20 years now. Also, the sounds will be far better and more realistic the what you are getting now. The good news is you can export the midi from Sibalius, then import it into Digital Performer to do your audio, mixing etc etc.
Do yourself a favor, for percussion tracks, get some midi drum tracks you can import into Sibalius. From there you can edit the drum tracks to you liking. Trying to score a realistic drum part is.... well.... unrealistic.
Hope that helps.
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I apologize... if this has already been stated, I tried to read most of the posts...
Personally... I don't have time to practice with BIAB etc... I picked it up a few years ago... I think I've used it 2 or 3 times. I have a looper and use it to help post on this forum. Sometimes to help remember something or a tune idea, Generally more for a feel or groove etc...
I did spend years playing and performing in front and behind etc... the public.
I'm not sure this will help... but there are lots of pros etc... and there are many approaches to playing. Some gigs are not really much different than playing with some type of pre recorded backing track. And some gigs are the opposite, the harmonic, melodic and rhythmic approaches and results... well they have lots of possibilities.
I believe you need to be able to play what you hear in any number of ways.
So at solo gig or by yourself... You need to imply the harmony, at least enough to the point that the changes are felt or heard by the audience. Obviously this varies with the audience and the tune...
But my point is you need to be able to spell and imply the harmony. If you prefer to hear this process as melody, embellishment and development it's the same thing just different approach and terms.
You always need to have or create a reference... without that reference... you can't create relationships and develop.
Its difficult to have subs with out something to create subs from ...
So this is a skill, a learned and developed skill... Generally you need to first be able to know what the harmony is, and then be able to imply that harmony.
With most Jazz ... you can start with 7th chords, basically derived from the three basic Minors. Chords built diatonically on each scale degree... Yada Yada .... You should know what the changes are and where they're from in any number of typical Jazz contexts... The tunes.
This is somewhat the basics... once you get those skills together... your ready to start.
So at this point you can play and imply harmony for most jazz tunes and some more contemporary... you can fake it. You have a basic harmonic reference to use... somewhat vanilla, but more than enough.
At this point...you can imply harmonic motion through your playing... and hopefully Hear harmonic motion. Like I said the basics.
The next skill is being able to imply compound harmony... different harmonic references at the same time. The basic starting reference is the relative and parallel minor relationships and related II-'s
Somewhat like the Martino minor conversion application or from minor to Maj... Take Autumn Leaves
A-7.......D7..........Gma7......Cma7.....F#-7b5....B7......E-7.... basic changes.... now the relative Maj version...
Cma7....F#-7b5...B-7.........E-7........A-7..........D7.......Gma7... very mechanical and vanilla.
So the point I'm trying to get to is this different skill of being able to hear, play and imply different relationship... in the example of Autumn Leaves... being able to imply the relative C Maj. relationship and still have the 1st basic A- reference
Present.
So the use of backing tracts should help develop the skill of hearing these relationships... once your aware of them.
This skill of being able to create different relationships... Melodically or harmonically. (they're the same for me). It's difficult to play what you can't hear or are not aware of....I guess you can just keep beating it into yourself and eventually something comes out...
Some bass players etc... can imply harmonically... some can't. When you perform with good musicians... you have options to play both ways... 1)you can create 2nd level relationships and develop from there... 2)or you can just play the standard... chord tones and implied changes with melodic development.
With not so good musicians... you generally only have the second choice. Of course you can just ignore the audience and play whatever you choose also.
Long BS short... be able to perform solo and imply harmony..whatever is needed and,
also be able to play with relationship to the changes.... from different harmonic references. Practice both.
I can also tell you... that playing jazz usually means involvement of other musicians and the audience.... you need to be able to interact, not just play what you have memorized etc...
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Originally Posted by Reg
i don't think I agree with the first part of this. Or maybe I agree but not as a reason for practicing your lines w a backing track. Maybe you do need a reference point to hear what a 3 - 9 arpeggio sounds like over a major chord but a backing track isn't the way to do that. First of all its moving in time so we're probably trying too hard to juggle the changes to really listen to the voicings. Second for all we know the guy in the backing track may (and probably will) be using some of these subs already! Or even other subs that will clash... I would imagine a better way to get the subs in your ear would be to play them over a static bass note or harmony very slowly. Actually assembling lines I feel would be better done w no backing. That way your only focus is on the melodic construction of the line.
Also overuse of backing tracks of any kind will probably make one less likely to outline the harmony definitively because the harmony is already there so they aren't required to do so. Again the exception to this would be slow static harmony or pedal notes to really hear subs and extensions.
i agree whole heartedly with your last statement which is another reason why I'm a little suspicious of full band backing tracks
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I didn't get that from what Reg said, since he said he doesn't have time for BIAB, but since I don't have that software maybe he was more referring to setting it up. The way I see and relate to what Reg said, is that you definitely DO have to have a reference point, but it doesn't need to be played. You can create your reference point. I do this internally. I don't have to listen to one externally. I don't HAVE to play with someone making the changes so I can HEAR the reference to sub on. When you know the neck and the chords and harmonic structure, you just pivot off of the skeleton, or framework of the structure, but yourself. You create your own.
AS you know I'm an advocate for playing without backing tracks.
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Sure! That's exactly what I meant when I said that I sort of agree but not as a reason for using backing tracks. I think using backing tracks is counterproductive to really enriching your ear. Singing bass notes while you play subs or trying to audiate the bass notes or chord like you suggest? Pssshhhh ... That's spinach my friend. You'd have to try to not get better.
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Interesting turn to the discussion. I do like playing to a countermelody - stimulates my creativity, but it is certainly not necessary.
This "train wreck" will come into the station just fine. I finished recording the Sibelius tracks into the Korg D1200 recorder. Next I will record the vocal and guitar live to the track, mix it a little, and create the CD-R to transfer the wav. files into the Windows computer and get them into MP4 or whatever the better quality form is within reason. I'm kind of forced at least for this one to record 16 bit, but it sounds good. Couple of mistakes on the piano part, but too late to change around, and they are not that glaring. With Sibelius you have to be careful regarding timing and feel. The best way is to record with no tempo latitude. Straight as you play it. I think I recorded with the performance parameters on Poco Rubato rather then Meccanico, which is straight to the click. But it does not matter too much. Next time I will remember that little mistake.
Thanks for the helpful advice including the suggestions of Vintage Love. Yes, having a computer DAW would be a big assist. But this recording just may surprise you, and I will try to play my best guitar. I'm anxious to hear the end result, which is coming down the track. Might even be up by the end of the night or by tomorrow morning. I need a little help with the video thing on Windows which my son knows better than I. Thanks for the patience of those who are waiting with bated breath (no one really). Recording the guitar and vocal will be the easiest part.
JayLast edited by targuit; 11-06-2014 at 02:38 PM.
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What if we allow the conversation to drift back to the topic per Reg's post without being yanked back down this road. Id love to hear more about your recording when it's accompanied by work-product. Until then maybe start a thread of your own if you're looking for pointers.
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Recording is done. Truthfully, first take vocal and guitar. Not imperfect - at one point I kind of got distracted and out of the flow - but that makes it more interesting. What worked - miraculously - was that I managed to match the tempo of the original tracks on Sibelius with the "bossa nova" percussion track on my Korg (not easy, btw) given that I cannot manipulate that "bossa" track other than the tempo. I don't know why, but matching bpm on different systems does not always seem to be accordng to the math. In any case, this seemed to work for me. I wanted the spontaneity of the first track take. And I don't have the luxury of time.
Next step for my 'backing tracks' plus improvised guitar is to create a CD-R - not as transparent as it should be on the Korg. But if I get it right, I should be able to get this up by tomorrow or Saturday, which would just make my deadline. Better Friday. But, I don't know if it's an extra glass of wine at dinner, but this recording is pretty cool, given that it is all my arrangement and playing. Synergy. QED. Or something like that.
BTW, apart from issues separate from the original post, my posts are relevant to the actual creation of a recording using my own backing tracks. Rush job. Not perfect, but I'm kind of pleased. See what you think. Just have to complete the next couple of steps - my computer adviser (my teenage son) will be otherwise engaged tomorrow night - I may be on my own with i Tunes (not too bad) and Windows Movie (Uh-oh.....) or maybe I can figure out how to get it on my Macbook. Tech wiz, I am not.
Jay
JayLast edited by targuit; 11-06-2014 at 09:13 PM.
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Yea... I'm not sure I agree with my BS... I was trying to come up with a possible reason to use backing tracks... and take the opportunity to bring up some details about developing skills etc...
But Henry was right on as to what I was saying.... personally I don't need backing tracks. I've been involved in music way too long, I have no excuses.
But I am a big advocate of being aware of references... personally it's the only approach. I was just thinking maybe use of backing tracks... which establish a harmonic reference might help players be able to hear.... different combinations of references, even if that begins with playing what someone believes sounds wrong over some changes... or even over a vamp.... and eventually becoming able to hear something that they were not aware of before.
Even something like simple Dom7th sus chords resolving to Dom7th #11 chords... a possible was to develop ones ears, or the also very simple use of harmonic weak side of the beat tension resolve techniques.
Like I said... I was just trying to find a use .... besides memorizing.
The point about static reference... is cool, but I would think that is what backing tracks are... somewhat like extended chord patterns are basically just One harmonic reference. A backing track is just a more layered static reference.
Developing your ears and playing skill to become comfortable with irregular vertical alinement... between harmonies and melodic relationships might improve... I don't really know, you need to develop these skills somewhere.
And no one believes that there is only one approach to anything. It's never one way or the other... it's usually both and then some.Last edited by Reg; 11-06-2014 at 11:08 PM.
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Sure. This all makes sense. I'd agree with all of that. I obviously used them extensively years ago but in hindsight I really only feel like they gave me a sort of rewarding way to hear myself play what I'd been practicing. For most practical reasons I'm firmly on the side of "not a fan" at this point.
I see where you're coming from and obviously there's a place for them somewhere I'm sure!
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I've used Aebersold CDs a lot, and recorded backing tracks of just rhythm guitar with a looper or with a DAW. But I made a big breakthrough when I went for a period this year of just practicing solo, with and without a metronome. I had gotten good enough at playing the changes on tunes that I was familiar with using backing tracks, that playing solo was a real possibility for the first time.
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