Practicing Lines - Do you need a backing track of some sort?

[targuit]

Not to take anything away from Pat, but this is just the melody with flourishes with that squawky, rather unpleasant tone to my ears. But of course it is far easier to play just the single note melody to the progression. Quite different from a chord melody arrangement, though Pat can do that.

Jay

[grahambop]

Not to take anything away from Pat, but this is just the melody with flourishes with that squawky, rather unpleasant tone to my ears.

You gotta be kidding. That is an improvised solo at a level which is beyond most of us. Feel free to dislike it or the sound (not very well recorded obviously), but to dismiss it as 'just the melody with flourishes' is nonsense.

The point is, all jazz guitarists should be aiming to be able to do something like this (strong solo lines which stand up on their own, with good time).

[henryrobinett]

I have no idea what targuit just thinks he heard or what he's talking about or what he thinks is far easier. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

[danwaineo]

Yeah no kidding. I could do a chord melody of ATTYA after playing guitar for a few years. It's now been 25 years of guitar playing, and I'm no where near to doing what Pat did in that video.

[targuit]

Really? Did we watch the same video? I saw a video of Pat adjusting his metronome, and then playing essentially a single-note melody line with improvisational flourishes. I frankly didn't like the tone he got on this video - who knows how that was shot.

Is it your collective opinion that that version of ATTYA was on some supernatural plane? It is not. And please stop making derogatory comments, when you know not whereof you speak. In the US of Amnesia, it is not well recalled, but there is such a thing as freedom of thought and opinion. BTW, I do play this song anyway you like.

Graham, I actually preferred your recent version of Estate by far. In fact I am working on that recording right now. This morning I wrote an arrangement in Sibelius which I want to use as backing tracks. But before I got anything done, an accident nearly wrecked what I was doing. I use my Godin LGX-SA to input notes in real time to Sibelius via my Roland GR-20 guitar synth into the computer via an M-Audio USB/midi interface, an awkward and complex operation, but one that bears fabulous results. It enables me to orchestrate fairly realistic bass, strings, woodwinds, piano and other instrumental voices into my arrangement. Then the midi files that are created can be uploaded into my Korg D1200. This is a much superior solution to trying to record the Roland synth directly into the Korg due to the synth latency. But as I was standing and fiddling with something leaning over my keyboard synth, the damn strap button near the base of the neck came undone, causing the guitar to fall against my Yamaha keyboard synth. The force of the blow was taken most directly on the synth thirteen pin output connection from my guitar, causing it to bend quite a bit. I had to repair with pliars, hoping the damage was not significant to the guitar output or the synth connection. Fortunately it works, but now I'm loathe to remove the output from the guitar.

Anyway, when the damn thing works, it is great! I recorded a piano part that was fabulous, but because I inadvertently hit a switch controlling the output - synth alone, synth plus guitar, just guitar - I ended up getting flanging due to the sound being mistakenly on synth plus guitar. My son needs the computer, so I have to get back to it later.

All this is irrelevant to the thread, but for the accusations by Henry and others that I somehow don't know what I'm doing or speaking about. This is what my Father used to call 'what makes the grass grow green and tall' - in a field of cattle. With limited time and equipment and competing with my son for the PC computer in which my Sibelius is installed, I'm trying to accomplish the recording that I want of Estate and a number of other tunes. The biggest challenges to me are not musical but technical as in recording limitations and the type of problems associated with the gear as I spoke of earlier, not to mention limits in time and access to my home computer. But if I can get the connections and switches on the guitar tricked out right, my recording will be up on Youtube as I wish to present it.

Then you can judge, Henry, otherwise you might think before you speak. And I have heard far better interpretations of ATTYA.

Jay

[grahambop]

Targuit

Thanks for your comments on my 'Estate'.

I do think you are missing the point of the Metheny video though. It's from a clinic, the sound is lousy, it's not easy to listen to because there is no harmony or backing, just Pat playing single lines with the metronome. Of course there are more enjoyable versions of this tune.

But Pat was demonstrating the point that guitarists should be able to play well-constructed solo lines that follow the changes, without any backing, and also do it absolutely in the pocket timewise. Most guitarists can't do this very well, which is why he was emphasising it to such a degree. So it was educational - I don't think for a moment that Pat would play it like this in a proper concert.

As far as I am concerned, if you open your ears and listen to it with all the above in mind, it IS on a very high plane. There's a lot to be learned from it. But it is not a version I would listen to for pleasure so much.

My own playing is weak in terms of good time - I know that. So I can learn a lot about how to work on this by listening to Pat here.

[danwaineo]

Targuit,

Sorry I offended you. I do think the Metheny video is very musical and I did enjoy it very much. If you did not like it that is OK.

Even if you did not enjoy it, maybe you can agree that it is very difficult to play like Metheny did on the video with just a metronome. I think his very solid time feel is amazing. I'm fine saying it was supernatural.

Time is my personal weakness when playing guitar. I'm much more solid on harmony than I am on time. I also think that guitarists in particular struggle with time. It may because so many of us came to jazz through rock and blues where time is much less important. Guitarist typically just float over the rhythm section.

This video was posted earlier in this thread. But I agree with Metheny that precious few guitar players play with good time:

[henryrobinett]

Wow. I have no patience for you targuit. I'm sorry. Zero.

[targuit]

Henry - I'm working out some technical difficulties, working to record something up to my personal standards. When it is done, in between my day job subsidizing this idiotic country's healthcare system that I have supported with my 'charity care' for the past thirty years, you will have something to judge. To do so without evidence is speculative at best. But if it makes you feel better, be my guest.

Jay

[inwalkedbud]

"Melody w inprovisational flourishes" is another way to describe when a player plays a tune as opposed to just playing the changes. I generally consider that a good thing as do most people. I'm also in the minority of guitar players here in that I'm not a huge fan of Methenys playing but he destroys that tune right there. No two ways about it.

An answer to the original question: hell no. I try to never use backing tracks. Sing your lines or sing the bass notes under your lines. That's the ticket. I used to use backing tracks but if you use the same track all the time you're going to get used to reacting to what's there... Also... I feel like to be an effective improviser you have to get used to listening to silence. If you don't get used to that in the practice room you want exercise it on the bandstand.

If no ones gathered from the last few days of discussion in a bit biased here because I don't like backing tracks in general. I'll admit that but I also feel that I have very good reasons for it. So there's thAt too.

[inwalkedbud]

Well that wasn't productive

[targuit]

Heh, heh! Rich, you forgot that little cautious thing you should always remember - it is better to remain silent and have people think you a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.

Anyway, this early morning I have been working on the song to be recorded, Estate, by Bruno Martino. Specifically last night and early this morning I created a transcription on Sibelius of this song in the key of Dm. The tracks are a melody voiced as strings which I will also sing over in Italian (I speak fluent Italian and my wife actually is Italian. Mama mia!) There is an acoustic piano track which I played on my Yamaha keyboard synth in real time and a string bass track entered via the Yamaha synth. I will record my vocal track live and a guitar track. Not sure yet whether classical nylon string or the LGX electric. I think the classical would be cooler, but we'll see when I lay down those tracks live.

If all goes well, I will record these midi file as voiced through my Yamaha synth's output into the Korg D1200 standalone digital recorder. Unfortunately, the inexpensive Yamaha's output does not allow me to pan the tracks separately but rather as stereo outputs. Not sure how it will be on the soundstage but I think it is worth it. I will try to pan the output so as to give the vocals the center soundstage and the 'lead' guitar track probably around three o'clock but will have to see when the tracks are in the Korg.

A potential problem may arise with the percussion. One thing I have not learned yet is to how to score a convincing percussion track in Sibelius. I do have a decent 'beguine' basic drumtrack function in the Korg, but it could be a problem potentially matching up the tempos. Hope not. Another variable is that Sibelius allows you to adjust the rhythm feel of the tempo - varying degrees of swing or mechanical or espressivo, rubato, samba, etc. Hopefully the files will play well with each other. We will see.

All of this might be much easier to do with a competent band of good jazz musicians, but they don't hang out at my house at four in the morning. But in any case, I should have something to put up on my YT channel for Rich to critique. I imagine all this work would be easier with a good computer DAW like Apple Logic. Hope to get that soon. In any case every note will be me. We will all see how it comes together - or not.

As I point out, the hard part is not playing the music - it is dealing with the technology and many factors that like tempo and feel that are easier with live musicians.

Jay

[princeplanet]

And have you ever posted a comment to this forum where you didn't mention Sibelius?

..... apparently not

[mr. beaumont]

Goodness targuit...nobody wants to hear all that. How about you, an iphone, and youtube. Just let us hear you play the guitar, let us hear you improvise. Folks are really tired of the circles, man, all people are asking for is some backup to your very authoritative (and sometimes common knowledge contradictory) views on playing jazz and improvising. Not a string section and you singing in Italian. Guitar. By itself. No fluff.

[grahambop]

Is Targuit a sales agent for Sibelius?

I see Tacofarm has done a nice version just using 2 guitars - that's the way to do it, especially with a bossa.

[henryrobinett]

Ridiculous.

[targuit]

Guys, I did more work on the whole deal this morning. I don't think you understand. I wrote a complete arrangement for strings, piano, string bass, and then I will be singing vocals in Italian as well as playing a guitar part live for the recording. Every note is what I wrote. I played the piano as well. The arrangement knocks me out. The Yamaha synth is the sound engine for the midi files. It is coming out just as soon as I can get it out. This is not a time to say foolish things as you will regret it. I will be doubling the structure to get over three minutes of music, including a largely instrumental section in the second half to demonstrate the guitar possibilities.

Something like this is like a demo of what this arrangement would sound like with a small orchestra. And no, I'm not McCoy Tyner, but I'm loving the sounds, given that this is the limit of what a $69 notation software, a $60 large condenser, and whatever abilities I have can produce. And remember their will be no Autotune or comping of the guitar track - those will one take live. I'm really pleased.

Btw, Graham, I did record a preliminary version that was a two guitar track bossa version plus vocal at 24-bit which with the old KorgD1200 allows me 6 tracks, while if I record at 16-bit I can get 12 tracks. So I already know what levels I will use. I record vocals with just some soft compression and the a touch of delay and some EQ to subtract muddy bass frequencies. Otherwise it is as recorded in my living room "studio" with my modest MXL large diaphragm condenser.

This is quite different from typing in chord changes in BIAB. I went into such detail here because I think it illustrates some of the issues with using backing tracks that YOU CREATE. Not BIAB. And secondly I'm sick and tired of this trite critique of my opinion. And Prince, let it be know that I create music completely by ear, though I know the theory. No need to ponder subs and reharmonization when you play from your heart. The music will speak.

I also have another reason to try and get this done quickly in between working and caring for my son, cooking, cleaning, etc. My wife, who is Italian, is currently in Italy tending to her Mother dying of vascular dementia. I want to dedicate my performance to my brave wife, my tragic mother-in-law, my sister's brother and his two beautiful daughters and his new wife with child, and my incredible father-in-law who is caring for his wife to the end. I want to get this up before my wife returns in the hope that they will be able to hear it on YouTube together. My wife returns on the 10th, so time is short.

[djangoles]

Glad I'm still on vacation

[fep]

Back to the original post...

Try it both ways and decide for yourself.

I think for advanced players having backing tracks is less important. For beginners just keeping time is difficult. For intermediates, perhaps it's hard to understand/hear what certain intervals sound like against an underlying chord if you don't have the undrlying chord playing.

[mr. beaumont]

Jay, I think the issue here is, nobody doubts you can create a lovely arrangement in Sibelus...in fact, I'd be willing to bet you know that program better than anybody here.

We're also not here for vocals. This is a jazz guitar forum. Many people here have never even TRIED to sing. So we're not doubting your ability there either, nor are many of us in any place to judge it.

We're going on well over a year now (I think) of hearing about your improvisational ability. It's at times been quite boastful--How you can play whatever you hear, how you can hang with anybody on this forum anyday. We've seen seen you advise beginners of many practices that seem to go against common jazz pedagogy (Segovia scales, insistence on using notation software, etc.)

All anybody really wants is to hear you play some jazz. Improvise. Comp and blow over some changes.

I don't even like posting this, really, because I'm not a fan of the "put up or shut up" argument usually. It's just that your advice is delivered with such authority, such self-assuredness...it seems almost strange we've never heard you play.

I'm positive your arrangement is going to be really nice, and I mean that in absolute sincerity. But it's not going to end people's questions about your ability to practice what you preach when it comes to playing JAZZ.

[princeplanet]

Good for you Jay, sounds like it means a lot to ya. Never mind the good natured ribbing, it's just that with all the talk about how you're gonna do it, well, you coulda spent the time actually doing it! We're all hangin'...

[targuit]

Jeff, I'm getting more than a bit annoyed with your attitude. First, I am a complete musician and a physician. I am as serious as a heart attack. And I'm tired of the condescending attitude. I sing because I have a damn good voice. Love to hear you soon. And I will be improvising the live guitar part. I also wrote the arrangement and played the piano live. You will hear it soon. To avoid severe embarrassment, I would suggest you temper your comments until you hear the results. That also goes for another "pro" who lacks a bit of humility.

I do my music as I want to present it, not as some ditty recorded in the kitchen to the sounds of a dishwasher.

[mr. beaumont]

My attitude? I'm trying to help you out.

"Love to hear you soon."

I've posted about a hundred sound clips here on this site, video and/or audio, many from my dining room. So I'm assuming the "dishwasher" comment is a shot at me? Classy. I got two kids under the age of three, and occasionally want to illustrate a point to help or solicit feedback from the many better players here on something I'm working on. Forgive me if it's not the polished product you were expecting. But you know what? While the dishwasher was running, I hit record and put myself out there. I know my recordings aren't perfect. You continue to hide behind words and plugs for Sibelus. But I have the humility problem.

I also don't claim to be a pro. I'm upfront about what I can and can't do. And you think I have the humility problem?

What am I going to be embarrassed about? I never said you can't play. I've been trying to tell you for months that all you gotta do is show you can play and all the "haters" will go away.

Dishwasher. What a cheap shot.

[princeplanet]

Pretty sure the "humility" thing wasn't aimed at you Jeff.... Let's get off his case. He says he'll do it by the 10th. let him have the last hurrah...

[grahambop]

Dishwasher...now that's given me some ideas. My next clip will be a free-jazz workout accompanied by a dishwasher. Let's see who is best with the kitchen appliances, huh?