Best Resource to Learn Jazz Guitar Improvisation?

[jzucker]

Scott,

Obviously your approach works because your playing is at a ridiculously high level. I still think the methodology I use with my students has the highest degree of success. I have taken students struggling to play over How High The Moon and within a few months they are playing over Countdown and Giant Steps so in terms of a generic approach , I still feel strongly about my methods.

I think someone of your talent is at the extreme end of the scale and not necessarily the best way forward for mere mortals.

[dingusmingus]

I still think the methodology I use with my students has the highest degree of success. I have taken students struggling to play over How High The Moon and within a few months they are playing over Countdown and Giant Steps so in terms of a generic approach , I still feel strongly about my methods.

Jack, could you say a little more about your approach with students? We know it involves transcription, but can you talk a little more about how you structure the whole thing?

[GuitOp81]

Just a few words on this topic from the least formulaic of the jazz giants

[Scott Jones]

Scott,

Obviously your approach works because your playing is at a ridiculously high level. I still think the methodology I use with my students has the highest degree of success. I have taken students struggling to play over How High The Moon and within a few months they are playing over Countdown and Giant Steps so in terms of a generic approach , I still feel strongly about my methods.

I think someone of your talent is at the extreme end of the scale and not necessarily the best way forward for mere mortals.

Absolutely, Jack. Your approach is the way to go for most. And really, my approach is STILL transcribing, in a way. It's just that I loaded all of the solos into my head first, and "transcribed" them directly to my hands as I was playing, rather than writing them out and doing literal note for note memorization.

[jzucker]

Jack, could you say a little more about your approach with students? We know it involves transcription, but can you talk a little more about how you structure the whole thing?

It would take quite a bit of text to describe it but a big part of it is learning every lick you transcribe on every finger of every string, transposing to all keys, modifying to fit over Maj7, Dom7, Min7, Dim7 and Alt and being able to incorporate it in linear fashion throughout the entire fingerboard from the first fret all the way to the higher frets.

I have a video which discusses some of this which folks may find interesting.

[NSJ]

Just a few words on this topic from the least formulaic of the jazz giants

I've been meeting regularly with a friend of mine who is a retired jazz/flamenco musician. He played jazz on the tenor sax and clarinet and flamenco on guitar. He grew up in the 1950s and got to meet and study with people like Art Pepper and Harold Land. He was all about internalizing cliches as a foundational aspect to one's playing. That and never fearing mistakes. Miles Davis also had a famous quote: "do not fear mistakes there are none". When my friend was in Europe, Johnny Griffin came to hear him play, and afterwards said the following to him: "you were worried about that mistake you played, weren't you? You know why it was a mistake? Because you thought it was a mistake".

Incidentally, he once presented a transcription of Stan Getz to Art Pepper. Mr. Pepper was not impressed. "Got any Zoot Sims?" Art responded. Sims apparently was never predicable at Getz was. At least according to Art Pepper.

At the last meeting, my friend showed me the classic Stan Getz cliche/lick that he used everywhere. It was a diminished chord lick that he moved up and down minor 3rds? (what's that? diminished chords? Minor thirds? No way. )

I think schmos like me need to treasure any piece of sage advice from any and all seasoned pros.

Strangely enough, my friend never plays jazz on guitar, as he leaned his jazz lines on saxophone. And when I asked about "Nuevo Flamenco", he responded, "man, if I wanted to play that, I might has well play jazz".

[jzucker]

Absolutely, Jack. Your approach is the way to go for most. And really, my approach is STILL transcribing, in a way. It's just that I loaded all of the solos into my head first, and "transcribed" them directly to my hands as I was playing, rather than writing them out and doing literal note for note memorization.

just as an FYI, I rarely notate a solo when I transcribe. I usually don't transcribe an entire solo either. I pick out parts the pique my interest with unusual note or rhythmic choices or harmonies. There are exceptions of course.

I copied all of benson's billie's bounce and wes' D natural blues but usually I just pick out lines that turn me on. I find that if I actually do an entire solo and bother writing it out, I'm tired of it by the end and don't feel like learning to play it afterwards. I think it's a good exercise though but for practicality's sake, I encourage people to learn by ear over writing things out.

I also feel that it's important to document your ideas (including those you copy) in a manuscript book. I took this idea from Dennis Sandole and later Pat Martino who had dozens of books filled with licks and lines. In fact, when I wrote Sheets of Sound for Guitar, I went back to my manuscript books and picked out the best ones to put in my books.

[Nabil B]

It would take quite a bit of text to describe it

Do you detail the process precisely in your books ?

[mr. beaumont]

I've never been big on writing stuff down either, but I don't necessarily suggest NOT writing stuff down. It just didn't help me internalize.

Like Scott, I had to be able to hear it to play it, and I had to be able to play it to internalize it. I tried transcribing some stuff that was way beyond my ability (guessing it still is) and I didn't get much out of it because I couldn't really apply it. That application was and is everything for me.

[angelpa]

Do you detail the process precisely in your books ?

What are the titles?

[dingusmingus]

It would take quite a bit of text to describe it but a big part of it is learning every lick you transcribe on every finger of every string, transposing to all keys, modifying to fit over Maj7, Dom7, Min7, Dim7 and Alt and being able to incorporate it in linear fashion throughout the entire fingerboard from the first fret all the way to the higher frets.

Very cool, thanks Jack.

That's the direction I go in with transcribing licks, but I can see it is even more rigorous by far. Now, I might work it out in a few positions and try it over different tunes, for example, but I don't play it all over the neck, or modify it to fit different chord types.

I'm gonna try to incorporate more of your approach to my transcription and see how it works out for me.

Thanks!

[jzucker]

What are the titles?

Sheets of Sound Home Page

I do not detail my teaching methodology in these books. These books are mostly thesaurus style depictions of lines and exercises meant to stimulate your creativity in much the same way as the slonimsky books do for composers though my books are not mathematically derived.

[angelpa]

Sheets of Sound Home Page

I do not detail my teaching methodology in these books. These books are mostly thesaurus style depictions of lines and exercises meant to stimulate your creativity in much the same way as the slonimsky books do for composers though my books are not mathematically derived.

Thank you

[Jonzo]

Actually, Jonzo, Jack has proved that he can play jazz guitar at a high level, which carries a lot of weight around here. Further, his advice has proved helpful to many players who hope to reach that level. You're the one who hasn't proven anything.

It is fine if you want to conduct experiments on alternative teaching methods---no one is stopping you. No one is stopping you from sharing the findings of others who have done such research. But to act as if you mentioning research you would like to see done but haven't actually done somehow puts you ahead of people who have learned how to improvise is daft. It is one thing to say 'perhaps another way would also work' but another thing altogether to suggest that those who have learned how to improvise are no more knowledgeable than someone who, so far as we know, hasn't learned how to do it OR teach it.

Mark--I'm giving this thread a rest. But since you specifically addressed me, I'll reply.

Here is what I said to Zucker:

"If you are saying the evidence is good enough for you, that's fine. But it is not proof in the way a scientist or logician would use the term."

to me, this sounds a lot like

"Perhaps another way would also work."

I never said that Zucker's methodology was bad, or inferior.

Actually, I really don't know what alternate method people think I am proposing, or claim to have proven. Language is an alternate lens for looking at music. If you look at the points I made about effective language instruction--the actual methodology--it is probably what most teachers on this forum do, in some form or another. I am puzzled as to what people think I am telling them to do differently.

I think the problem is I led with something "bad" about transcription, which I now see is like waving red meat around here. Some people dealt with it in the context it was made; others felt it implied a lot of other things and reacted accordingly. I am sure there are some people who are still convinced I am telling them not to transcribe or copy. Still, whenever there is miscommunication, you have to look at your own role in the conversation.

As I said, I'm giving the thread a rest, so you needn't reply. Or you could PM. I don't want any more of this thread to be about me. I just wanted to address what you said.

I enjoyed our discussion.

[fep]

I think someone of your talent is at the extreme end of the scale and not necessarily the best way forward for mere mortals.

I think this is a really good point.

I believe a student has to be like a detective mixed with a bit of a self-critic. It's a constant evaluation to try to determine what is working best for you. In this pursuit recording yourself often gives great feed back for self-evaluation. A good teacher, perhaps they need to be a good detective too.

Also, I would think one would need a different approach with a 51 year old like the OP in this thread, versus the approach one would take for an 18 year old. The 18 year old may aspire to be the greatest guitarist in the world and be willing to practice 12 hours a day if necessary. The 51 year old, might only be willing to practice a half hour a day and is just looking for an enjoyable hobby. Using what the greats did to learn perhaps makes a lot more sense to the 18 year old than to the 51 year old.

At some older age the concept of deferred gratification starts to make little sense. (I have experience with this as I was 51 once.)

[jzucker]

agreed Frank. Those points should be highlighted. You also need to scope and quantify your goals. If you goal is to be able to play satin doll and I can't get started and be able to play melody chords and maybe a simple improv that is one thing but if you aspire to play on the level of a kreisberg that is something else entirely.

[MarkRhodes]

Here's a guy who's a "pretty good" player.

Yeah, Frank Vignola is one of my favorite living guitarists. I've learned several of his "etudes" and gained a lot from them. Incredible technique with a great sense of swing (-when it's called for). Great feel for the blues too.

[MarkRhodes]

Mark--I'm giving this thread a rest. But since you specifically addressed me, I'll reply.

Here is what I said to Zucker:

"If you are saying the evidence is good enough for you, that's fine. But it is not proof in the way a scientist or logician would use the term."

to me, this sounds a lot like

"Perhaps another way would also work."

I never said that Zucker's methodology was bad, or inferior.

This is dodgy in a way that irks. Scientists and logicians do not use the term "proof" in the same say. "Every schoolboy knows" that 'science never proves anything' Many scientists consider "scientific proof" to be an oxymoron. (No one considers "mathematical proof" to be an oxymoron.) When you told Jack it was fine for him to say the evidence was "good enough for [him]" you suggested that you have a higher standard of evidence but you do not. (We also do not use "evidence" the way a judge might use the term when ruling in a criminal case, but this is not a defect in our thought or speech.)

Saying 'perhaps another way would also work' is trivially true. Sure, it is possible. It is also possible that 'another way' (-any particular other way) might fail. That mere possibility is neither evidence nor science.

[Nabil B]

I do not detail my teaching methodology in these books.

Do you plan on doing this someday ? In a specific book, or even as a downloadable pdf. I would buy that on a whim.

[jzucker]

Do you plan on doing this someday ? In a specific book, or even as a downloadable pdf. I would buy that on a whim.

Thanks. I don't have current plans for that. I have a tentative plan to do an SOS Vol III as an E-Book first. It's tough though because when I'm in the middle of writing my books , I have no time for practicing. I need to retire first.

[Patrick2]

Do you plan on doing this someday ? In a specific book, or even as a downloadable pdf. I would buy that on a whim.

I doubt that any jazz guitar teacher would wnat to do that. That would be like training your competitor or future competitor.

My current jazz instructor, Bob Ferry is also a graduate of Berklee. He too has developed his own method of teaching. Guy's like Bob and Jack pay huge amounts of money and "dues" in the form of sweat equity at these Universities . . studying with guys like Leavitt. Then they determin . . "Hmmm . . I think I can offer a better/quicker/easier way for students to learn what I learned". Then, they "can it" and try to sell it. Giving away such insight would be kinda like Coca Cola giving Pepsie its formula for Coke . lolol.

[Nabil B]

I doubt that any jazz guitar teacher would wnat to do that. That would be like training your competitor or future competitor.

My current jazz instructor, Bob Ferry is also a graduate of Berklee. He too has developed his own method of teaching. Guy's like Bob and Jack pay huge amounts of money and "dues" in the form of sweat equity at these Universities . . studying with guys like Leavitt. Then they determin . . "Hmmm . . I think I can offer a better/quicker/easier way for students to learn what I learned". Then, they "can it" and try to sell it. Giving away such insight would be kinda like Coca Cola giving Pepsie its formula for Coke . lolol.

I don't agree. Countless music teachers have detailed their methods in books or on videos, and that didn't harm them in anyway because 1) they make money with these products 2) their books will never replace their actual "real life" teaching skills and personal advice.

[RyanM]

I think it's worthwhile for beginners to transcribe at least a few whole solos. Pulling licks here and there is what most people do, and is fine when you already know what you're doing. But you can learn a lot by seeing how a solo is developed from start to finish, and how it lays on the fretboard.

And also because learning the notes is only the first step: playing along with the recording and learning how to lock in, is how you learn to develop your time feel... swing, articulation, phrasing. The only other way to do that, is to be able to regularly play with great players, but most beginners aren't doing that.

[angelpa]

Also, I would think one would need a different approach with a 51 year old like the OP in this thread, versus the approach one would take for an 18 year old. The 18 year old may aspire to be the greatest guitarist in the world and be willing to practice 12 hours a day if necessary. The 51 year old, might only be willing to practice a half hour a day and is just looking for an enjoyable hobby. Using what the greats did to learn perhaps makes a lot more sense to the 18 year old than to the 51 year old.

At some older age the concept of deferred gratification starts to make little sense. (I have experience with this as I was 51 once.)

For the record, I (the OP) will be 52 next month

Now maybe there's a market for you more experienced improvisers out there:

How about writing a book, "Beginning Jazz Guitar Improvisation for the Quinquagenarian."

[angelpa]

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