Seeing one large shape all over the fingerboard

[targuit]

Or, you could just download a copy of Segovia's Major and Minor Diatonic Scales.

[Reg]

Hey targuit,
Hope your well. Segovia's Maj. and Min. Diatonic scales fingerings is great and very useful for performing traditional classical rep. and is great beginner start, but will not begin to cover fretboard awareness from a jazz perspective technically and you will hit even more walls from Jazz harmonic and theoretical concepts.

No disrespect intended toward one of the, if not the greatest Classical Master, but we're comparing apples to Italian food.

Just for comparison, what other approaches of organization do any of the other teachers or Pros on this forum use, for developing complete fretboard awareness. Just the simple nuts and bolts, fingerings and their connections.

[targuit]

Ciao, Reg! Nice to see you back.

I don't know. I have always found those scales as fingered by Segovia to work very well in terms of transitions on the fret board. Let me point out that I first started using these fingerings as a young teen around twelve. That was a while ago. My knowledge of the fret board is completely accurate. To be objective, I think each guitarist must find what works for the individual.

I don't find jazz all that different from any other music. In other words, you learn to play in the style, especially rhythmically. When I do 'scale work' these days, it becomes little exercises that I improvise involving jazz style phrasing. Much more effective than just running scales imo.

Jay

[Reg]

All great Jay,

But just dealing with fretboard awareness and being able to finger and perform Jazz common practice... playing in a jazz style. The fingerings designed and developed from Segovia's book... are very limited and more suited towards Block chords and maj/min function based music.

Jazz generally requires position playing with the ability to perform and finger modal based note collections, that tend to modal interchange, modulate and generally have more than one modal or tonal reference simultaneously.

No one runs scales, arpeggios or any intervallic pattern exclusively... generally a method or type of improvisation is decided upon or you just react into the direction, whatever that method of improve is... you have a reference, create relationships and develop using all the techniques you decide on, feel or whatever method you've developed from your training.

That training can be trial and error or theoretical... but again fretboard awareness has levels of effectiveness. Segovia's fingerings generally are much better suited for performing traditional classical music, and rock based music.

Possibly... there might be more to jazz than your aware of. I don't mean this in a negative manor and I apologize if taken so. I've been playing jazz for way to many years... and I'm still learning all the time.

Your Friend... really Reg

[rkwestcoast]

I've been using this approach (which I think came from a John Stowell truefire course) - whenever I learn a line, scale or arpeggio - I practise it from every position where I can play an octave of the first note.

Really helps to start you moving around the neck and then start to hear and see the across the range of notes you can play

[GuyBoden]

I believe you need a systematic approach, so that you can visualise the whole fretboard in your mind in each key:

I've been playing for over 30 years, mostly pop and pop Jazz, but I see the whole fretboard, I use 3 child patterns that make 7 parent patterns that make the whole fretboard:

[mikostep]

I use mick goodrick's books almanac 1,2 and 3. I learn those cycles and then use those shapes for visualisation. Learning to embelish those shapes helps a lot.
Second one is triad pairs, try to find Mr Goldstein's "triad pairs". They are derived from Charlie Banacos teachings and help to HEAR the fretboard. They can be embelished too.
Playing on just one string is important.
Scale shapes from berklee method for guitar also helps.
For me, the most important thing is to "hear" the fretboard. Easiest way to hear it is trough triads and little melodies that you can easily recall.(David explained it). I have my set of melodies when I embellish triads or shapes and when I rhytmicise them this is great. I also had great experience with bergonzi book Development of jazz vocabulary for different approach.
It just takes more then one way of learning the fretboard to really internalize it.
Disclaimer: this is working for me.

[Reg]

Hey Guy,

Thanks for posting fingerings... pretty straight ahead, position fingerings with position referencing degree of scale on low string... add string and tune in 4ths.

The interesting detail would be the fingerings... what's the organization for finger stretches.

So there is a basic starting reference and then a development of that starting reference and presto... you have a system or organizational concept for developing fretboard awareness, then go through the same process with Melodic and Harmonic, maj and min., add in some symmetrical note collections.

Great points Micostep... Of course all these approaches are steps towards the end... simply relating the fretboard to what your hearing. Any organization of the notes, be triads, arpeggios, whatever.

I tend to believe in a very mechanical starting reference for creating any relationship, I'm aware that specific fingerings and positions create different sounds and help create styles, feels and grooves, but generally a good test is how your sight reading is with out looking at your neck, or sight reading and soloing through new tunes. Does your fingering and fretboard get in the way or does your method help your playing.

Here are my fingerings...

[PMB]

My general fingerings are the same as yours, Reg. Here they are rearranged to show seven positions of the major scale from the root and their corresponding arpeggio forms:

[Reg]

Hey PMG

Cool, nice layout of positions of entire fretboard with relationship of G maj. Very easy to see fingerings and then change relationship... for example change reference to A min. (dorian).

You obviously don't need to only play from G starting point from each position, but I guess it's good practice to teach target tonal references from all positions until that point when their not necessary?

The next step would to play all positions with reference to Gmaj. Ionian,
then Gmin. Dorian, then Gmin Phrygian etc... And I guess it's a good idea to use the target or root as starting point in each position, at least until you don't need it. (entire fretboard).

With respect to your arpeggio study ... again cool. Why are they organized in diatonic 7th chord built on G maj. scale.
Gma7, A-7, B-7, Cma7 etc... I don't see or hear as G13 arpeggio.

I would believe one should start with complete arpeggio from each position, G, B, D, F#, A, C, E, G, then from next, starting on A. Then start learning with respect to tonal targets, Triads, 7th chords etc...

Hear are some Arpeggio Embellishment studies that I use for improve based on on two octave position fingering. They're a very mechanical method of using target notes with related arpeggios for creating relationships... and development. This might get useful...

[PMB]

Hey, Reg. I like your idea of illustrating each position with a possible derived figure. As for these particular charts of mine, they are, as you guessed, designed with regards to tonal reference. I also have charts for major, melodic minor and harmonic major/minor modes but posted the scale version of the major as an additional viewpoint of the fretboard to your own.

The arpeggio chart grew out of teaching students about the harmonized scale and applying the concept to each position. I could have used triads but with all respects to George Van Eps, the 7th chord remains in my mind the fundamental harmonic unit of jazz harmony. Incidentally, guitarists like Rosenwinkel and Monder are rediscovering Van Eps and reinvestigating the power of triads but they're generally treating them as extensions and alterations to fundamental forms.

In practice, most extended chords e.g., 9ths, are reduced to 4 note chords, particularly on the guitar where all sorts of restrictions surface that a pianist for example doesn't face. In many cases, these reductions will reproduce one of the other arpeggios within the family and I'll point out to students the synonymous quality that derived arpeggios may have to the fundamental - e.g., a Bm7 arpeggio over G creates a 9th harmony. All that said, I get your point about beginning with the extensions themselves (and I imagine that your point of delaying the introduction of tonal concepts is the reason for eschewing the #11+C# in your discussion of the complete extended arpeggio). Let's face it: all roads eventually lead to Rome.

[Reg]

Hey PMB,

As I said, your charts look great and yes in Jazz the 7th chords are the basic reference.

And yes all roads lead to Rome, I like that. But most guitarist, musicians don't get to Rome or even know what Rome is.
Fretboard awareness and jazz are not really kid discussions, and when do you start explaining where and what Rome is?
I'm not an expert...

But it's pretty easy to see complete fretboard awareness with respect to any harmonic or complete pitch collection. And the organization or how you play those notes doesn't really mean anything with out a reference. This is the easy part, no thinking required... no choices. About as black and white as it gets with respect to jazz.

There are a few choices as to how you finger the notes, and eventually your going to be able to use most fingering systems, methods or whatever reference used for organizing the fingering... but the notes on the fretboard don't change.

[edh]

Hey Reg, what does the "-" under some notes for string used mean?

thanks

[PMB]

Hey PMB,

As I said, your charts look great and yes in Jazz the 7th chords are the basic reference.

And yes all roads lead to Rome, I like that. But most guitarist, musicians don't get to Rome or even know what Rome is.
Fretboard awareness and jazz are not really kid discussions, and when do you start explaining where and what Rome is?
I'm not an expert...

But it's pretty easy to see complete fretboard awareness with respect to any harmonic or complete pitch collection. And the organization or how you play those notes doesn't really mean anything with out a reference. This is the easy part, no thinking required... no choices. About as black and white as it gets with respect to jazz.

There are a few choices as to how you finger the notes, and eventually your going to be able to use most fingering systems, methods or whatever reference used for organizing the fingering... but the notes on the fretboard don't change.

How to get to Rome... that's always a hard one to answer, along with how to navigate yourself through Rome once you get there. As a teacher, do you present this stuff chronologically/historically as it manifests itself in the playing of jazz greats (not always a linear process) or do you introduce it via levels of technical, physical or mental challenge? Should we apply our fretboard organization to 'So What' before tackling 'Donna Lee'? Shell voicings before drop voicings? For example, David Berkman in his book, "Jazz Musicians Guide To Creative Practicing" deals with Giant Steps before Rhythm Changes as GS has a more commonly agreed set of changes.

[brightsize]

What about hearing all the possible notes as they happen? Shouldn't we be trying to play stuff based on how it sounds rather than how it looks on the fretboard?

My understanding of basing improv on chord scale shapes was that it was a stepping stone to hearing it, not the end goal itself.

[Vladan]

Hey Reg, what does the "-" under some notes for string used mean?

thanks

That'd be repetition, same as previous, ....

[Vladan]

What about hearing all the possible notes as they happen? Shouldn't we be trying to play stuff based on how it sounds rather than how it looks on the fretboard?

My understanding of basing improv on chord scale shapes was that it was a stepping stone to hearing it, not the end goal itself.

You should hear/ know the sound you are after, but you have to know where that sound is on the fretboard.

Knowing the sound occures on many levels. from that feeling of "being in a key", over making choice among various idioms, scales and modes sounds (like blues, chromatic, chord tones, harmonic/ melodic variants, diminished, augmented, ...., lydian, phrygian) and sensing good spots for favourite licks, to hearing each note exactly as it is.

I for sure can not do this ultimate thing.

[Reg]

Thanks Vladan, for explaining.

The teaching thing in relationship to when etc... I don't know. ASAP. Bad habits are difficult to break and once a basic beginning reference is established, again difficult for most to change.

The way I understand Fretboard awareness... It is a technique in it's self. Applications of use, like performing a tune, So What or Donna Lee, I can play the tunes where I choose for whatever reason, just like I can turn up the volume if I choose. Or I can use a specific fingering because I choose to do so.

I personally view fretboard awareness like being aware of the letters of the English alphabet... before one learns to spell or use the letters.

And as far as creating relationships with Fretboard awareness, again I use the fretboard awareness as technique to see/hear relationships such as how I relate,
-two octave position fingering of A min. aeolian or Natural Minor to Harmonic Minor... or Dorian Min. to Melodic Minor.

The fretboard doesn't change, and I made a choice as to what my beginning reference is, the fingerings, and I go from there. I don't run into wall because of contradictions.

Hey Brightsize... Generally the music is the end result... yes as I always try to imply, hearing what your playing or maybe stated in better order...Being able to perform what your hearing is that goal. (not the only one), Fretboard awareness is just being aware of what you have to work with.... to be able to play what your hearing.... on Guitar.

All processes of playing or learning scales, arpeggios, triads... any organization of notes can be a tool or technique to become aware of music. There are many methods of improv., the organization of how one might develop a solo.

Scales on guitar can also be a method of seeing relationships, a very physical method of visualizing relationships, play two octaves of Aminor, Dorian in 4th position then play two octaves of A melodic Min. in same position.... really easy to see as well as hear the difference. Do the same with complete arpeggios in same position. Again very easy to see as well as hear the difference.

This simple little exercise could be used to visualize Modal Interchange and what relationships could develop or whatever other aspect I wanted to teach or become aware of. With being able to hear what your playing or not. It's usually very difficult to hear what your not aware of...

I use those Arpeggio Embellishments I posted above as method to develop improve from very basic fretboard fingerings, I use them as tools to mechanically connect tonal targets and with references. Just as one hears single notes and then connects them etc... I use the note grouping as single notes to connect, and have many more options as to what relationships I want to develop... There are obviously many choices as to what note grouping I want to use.

My point... it's very difficult to consciously hear everything you play, note by note. You eventually develop techniques to hear larger groups of notes and their organization without having to go note by note.

Somewhat like you memorize licks or can hear things on your fretboard. What were we talking about, sorry.

[brightsize]

Better to harmonically analyze a tune and isolate different parts according to key centers or other characteristics and practice improvising over those individually. That way you don't just know chord scales -- that way you also become aware of how to play over things like tritonic substitution, borrowed chords, and subtle modulations.

If I practice over music, then my playing is more musical. Isolating different parts of a tune and practicing blowing over them individually lets me hear the harmony and develop my own musical ideas that can then be used in other tunes with the same harmony. That's better than chord scales IMO.

Reg, I think fretboard awareness is great, but it's most useful if it's used in conjunction with applied theory. Practicing over music allows this. Chord scales don't.

[Reg]

Hey Brightsize... All great and your approaches sound cool.

I'm not sure why your only choosing to see and hear only Chord scales as in relationship to Fretboard awareness?

As I said "any organization... of any note collection"...meaning... referencing any harmony and any personal musical ideas. You need to be able to play those Musical Ideas somewhere on the fretboard, what is your method of fingering those musical ideas, the organization behind the fingering on the fretboard.

I separate the fretboard awareness as a technical skill from musical ideas.

I do sometimes use mechanical fretboard patterns to develop harmonic relationships such as, "tritonic substitution, borrowed chords, and subtle modulations", and many other relationships, just as I consciously employ harmonic and theoretical concepts mentally before application. Fretboard awareness is my method of realizing what I hear or think I hear.. on the guitar, the technique is different when I play piano or trombone... the technique.

All analysis stems from a reference, there are many. All fingerings stem from a reference, I hope I've explained what my reference is and why I choose to use, (the organization of the fretboard). There are others, What do you use? I don't believe your implying each time you perform, you develop a new fingering system based on what your feeling or hearing at the moment. Not the organization behind what your playing... the organization behind the fingering your using to perform what you choose to play.

On a different subject, one that I enjoy and understand very well... applied theory....Saying Chord Scales don't work... is a little subjective. From a personal perspective, one can say what ever one wants, but do you even understand what chord scale theory implies.... the actual concept and referencing organization behind the term. I apologize if I'm BSing too much, please don't take personal...

As with most things... all aspects of music are going on all the time, we tend to choose what we want to hear or accept.

[brightsize]

Hey Brightsize... All great and your approaches sound cool.

I'm not sure why your only choosing to see and hear only Chord scales as in relationship to Fretboard awareness?

You need to be able to play those Musical Ideas somewhere on the fretboard, what is your method of fingering those musical ideas, the organization behind the fingering on the fretboard.

do you even understand what chord scale theory implies

Thanks Reg, I appreciate the reply and the compliment -- means a lot from someone who's been playing as long as you. My approach is based on what I've heard of what Metheny has said about how he practiced as a young man. What I understood him to mean is that practicing over tunes allows for all the technical development that scales and exercises do with the added component of musicality.

I tried to organize your questions so I could focus on them easily.

I don't see chord scales as the sole component of fretboard awareness. As you pointed out, fretboard awareness is a necessary component for any playing, and especially jazz. I just don't care much for basing playing off chord scales alone, which is something I see among colleagues. They have a place in jazz, certainly.

My method for fingering musical ideas on the fretboard is sonic memorization. Since I've held this idea for a long time that I want all my music to be based off of sound-based ideas rather than conceptual (ie physical, fretboard-shaped ideas), then my approach has been to learn the relative pitch of any fret/string from any other fret/string any place on the neck. Incidentally, this isn't because I think fretboard-shaped conception is a bad thing... not at all. But I think of sounds much faster than shapes, and my approach works well for me (it could be ineffective for someone else, I dunno). The stuff I use in the interim is based on various practice sheets I've gotten from my teacher, from his teacher (Joe Diorio) through my teacher, from his other teacher (Ted Greene) and his books, and Vincent Bredice, Joe's teacher. My own approach has been coming along (although it's snail-speed slow as I imagine you've gathered) and I can think of any tone and play it on the fretboard without looking at or visualizing the neck with some consistency. This is no better than a parlor trick, however, and demonstrates only the outer limit of the skill's current development. The practical effect is that I can think in musical phrases and play them with little physical resistance. When I encounter passages of relative pitches that my hands can't smoothly acommodate, I develop an exercise based around it and work out the kink.

As far as understanding what chord scale theory implies, I'm not sure what you mean. I understand what it implies as far as that there is a certain number of harmonious tones that can be played over a given chord.

The limitation of that, of course, is that chord scales can't take into account passing tones from chord to chord, but I'm quite sure you know this already. I've read through some of Berklee's books on harmony, but perhaps you could give me a better understanding of something about which I'm not yet fully aware?

[Reg]

Wow, nice response... your approach sound great and must work well for you. That's enough for me, thanks.
My basic goal when I get on guitar forums or teach in any setting, is to make Guitar Players... better musician.

Personally all aspects of fretboard awareness are important and have relevance.

Generally in music there are tonal and modal references, they're different. There can be one or more target reference(s) for that Tonal or Modal reference or what your playing or hearing. At any given moment... Micro, or over a period of time... Macro.

If I took my Fretboard layout and instead organized with relationship of Gmaj triad... there would be a complete fretboard layout or Grid that could be placed on the complete fretboard that showed all the Gmaj triads, every G,B,D would be visual and audible. I would need a fingering to play any notes from that reference. Generally when that fingering repeats and has an organizational application... and is organized with physical abilities of our fingers in mind... the fingering is more natural and is easier to perform.


If I now decided to create a relationship with that Gmaj Triad... that relationship could be what ever I choose, the tune or music I'm playing, chooses, or whatever... let's say the tune creates a relationship with that G triad by using an Ab7 chord and the melody over the G triad uses a F natural and the rest of the melody uses notes from chord tones.

So from basic analysis or whatever method one chooses... there are note implications and two chords. So now that fretboard note reference has more tonal and modal references... The G triad... with melody note of F nat. and Ab7...

That fretboard grid pattern now could represent the two chords and the melody notes... how you choose to define the note collections is your choice. There is Jazz Common Practice... which is based on Jazz tunes and Jazz players performances of those tunes... but whatever method one chooses, there are fingering that generally work much easier with the basic organizational aspects of performance i talked about above.

From your explanation of I'm not sure if the fingerings repeat, but if it works well for you cool.

Just some general commits... generally all aspects of performance are in play all the time. Sonic memorization, conceptual applications, mechanical applications... and on and on. Just because we're not aware of, or choose not to use or hear something doesn't mean it's not there.

There is much more to Chord Scale approach than your aware of... Sounds like your aware and understand functional harmony and theory basically defined by Rameau and Reimann. Chord scale is a method to help explain different methods of creating Function and organizational relationships between pitch collections. Somewhat like how modal music changes the notes which create tonal function. Chord Scale is a method to help understand different and possible relationships between chords and scales... a different reference for creating musical relationships. The actual use of scales is just a beginning teaching aid.

It's not playing scales over chords, the same performance applications, chord tones, arpeggios, scales etc are all involved.
Guitar players, pianist etc... just tend to only get into playing scales because it's an easy application, which personally sounds just as vanilla as playing chord tones... their both very limited and boring applications in themselves.

I would dig hearing some examples of your playing, it sounds like a very genuine and sincere approach to playing. Thanks of posts.

[targuit]

I agree with Brightsize as regards the speed and efficiency of aural musical thought as opposed to schematics of the fret board, though I appreciate that some like to develop complex patterns for which I can see no significant application.

In my view, the objective is to play music as melody and harmony freely on the guitar. Fret board awareness and the guitarist's ability to realize the music anywhere on the guitar neck is fundamental but developed over time with application to learning the major and minor diatonic scales. But I never created complex diagrams. I just listened to the intervals and learned to sight read notation. That's it in a nutshell. The facility to put this awareness into application with actual songs happens in the context of playing those songs.

I find that the further I get away from the aural dimension of music, the more irrelevant it gets to my objective. But I had fret board awareness down by the time I was thirteen. It took a bit more time to develop the freedom to play coherently.

Jay

[PaulCastelluzzo]

Hey dude! Super cool topic ! One thing that has helped me with that was learning my major scale all over the neck, its a long process but is worth is, because from there, you know c major scale contains all notes fitting of a D minor 7 chord, and sometimes you want to through some melodic or harmonic minor notes, so you know which note to alter from the major scale in this case, it would be raising the root, or flatting the 2nd note i.e-- C# / Db which would be the Major 7 of D, in a minor context that sounds really nice. But honestly, it takes time. Those are my two cents, have a wonderful day man!

Paul Castelluzzo

Im new to this group, like hours new, i posted i video of me soloing on the thread if you guys wanna hear!

Thanks

[GuyBoden]

As humans, pattern recognition is a big part of our behavioral characteristics, pattern recognition is one of the greatest human skills.

We use all of our senses to recognise patterns, that's how we navigate our world. So, only using our hearing sense when playing the guitar would be a big disadvantage, and it's probably impossible to ignore our innate visual pattern recognition of the fretboard.

There's been a lot of research into "Human pattern recognition", it's very interesting.