-
Scales are good. Segovia Diatonic major and minor in all keys. Harmonize them.
But scales do not teach you rhythmic patterns, dynamics, and the type of voice leading that can impart an energy to your playing, a pulse and lyricism. Playing actual songs does.
-
01-02-2014 05:22 PM
-
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I think we are actually in complete agreement in fact.
The quibbling is to with teaching style more than anything, I'm beginning to explore a more historical approach to jazz education. That said, try teaching a 17 year old who's just heard his first Scott Henderson record about Lester Young haha.
Most of the jazz students who seek me out seem to be interested in swing and gypsy jazz though... Not many who teach this style...Last edited by christianm77; 01-02-2014 at 05:48 PM.
-
Originally Posted by henryrobinett
Guitar is nice too though :-)
-
Originally Posted by unknownguitarplayer
I think what I was concerned about is players getting obsessed with scales to the exclusion of all else....
-
Originally Posted by unknownguitarplayer
It always seemed to me that the Miles', Herbie, Jarrett, Rollins, Bird, Walton, Dexter, Brownie, Dizzy, Powell, Chick, were all closer to the source of what I was trying to understand. That sound was less typified by Wes or Jim Hall. So it seemed to make more sense to study those other guys who played piano or horns. I didn't want to play those instruments. I wanted to play guitar, but more like those guys and a little less than the typical guitar player, who often seemed to have missed a step or two.
Looking for flame retardant.
-
Originally Posted by christianm77
-
Originally Posted by henryrobinett
-
Originally Posted by henryrobinett
I have to disagree re Wes and Jim Hall, but would agree more if you'd mentioned some other players (not saying who haha).
I didn't get the fuss about these two for years, and was mostly in to Coltrane, so I see where you are coming from. I've changed my mind over the years.
To me Wes and Jim Halls language are every bit as developed as the best horn player. Both these players' sophistication is not entirely obvious at first listen, and it's only by digging deeper into their music that I've really started to appreciate them. I don't feel ANY steps have been missed out here.
There is perhaps an argument that some guitarists (starting with Charlie Christian) make do with a fairly limited bag. I see this as a strength, but I can also see why some might see it as a failing. Perhaps Wes might be seen as someone like that, but I don't see it that way. Sometimes there's a lot of creativity to be had within a very specific area.
On the other hand you have someone like Django. No-one can play like Django. You can learn your 50 gypsy jazz licks and frankly have no idea what's going on in his solos. I'm not sure any guitarist has come close in terms of complete freedom.
But hey, personal taste. There's some guys who say Brownie is boring.
I have to say there are few guitar players that can spin a line as effectively as a good horn player. That's something I'm after!
-
@Richb
Key centre comes AFTER youve been through scales arps intervals....[/QUOTE]
I can vouch for that...you should hear how bad I sound when I play like that!
Seriously though--to me, the most damaging "jazz pedagogy" is that of the teachers that START with a key center approach...
-
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
-
Once in a great while a player comes along who somehow puts together exactly the right pieces early on in their development so that they're able to make real music when others are still dealing with mechanics. Perhaps that's one definition of talent, but really, there's no planning or predicting it, or even explaining it. But when it happens, making music begets making more music and learning by doing, and soon enough, you've got Wes, Django or a handful of others. It's inspiring, but the sad fact is that the rest of us mere mortals have to go through all the steps (and missteps) that we talk about here, and sometimes, the missteps overtake the positive ones.
-
Originally Posted by christianm77
I also say this because I've had three students now who started learning jazz from local rock guys who approached it this way, and they were really lost...
-
The Segovia scales just were silly to me. Exactly -- strange illogical shifts, as least as it relates to playing jazz. They made zero sense to me.
-
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I actually find it quite useful to understand the lines I transcribe over Rhythm Changes A say, from a key centre point of view - say b6 of the key rather than b9 over V7. Needless to say the notes are identical, but the concept is different.
BTW - pedantic smart arsing around - all that said - arpeggio practice rocks! I've got so much from it.Last edited by christianm77; 01-02-2014 at 09:22 PM.
-
Originally Posted by unknownguitarplayer
Also didn't Wes start playing at 21?Last edited by christianm77; 01-02-2014 at 09:31 PM.
-
Hall was light years ahead of Wes harmonically.
Doesn't make him better, mind you,.
-
Originally Posted by Richb
I can see we might not see eye to eye on this issue. Unless you have a complicated pseudo intellectual reasoning which we can debate ad nauseum. :-P
-
Originally Posted by Richb
Benson and Wes are incredible. But also Hall swings like crazy too in a different way. He swings FAR more than Metheny in my humble estimation...
No love for Emily Remler? She SWUNG.
Charlie Christian outswung all of the above. FACT. :-)Last edited by christianm77; 01-02-2014 at 10:31 PM.
-
Originally Posted by Richb
harmonic concept counts too...Hall was one of the first to get that you could play more than bop on guitar...
-
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
After all, notes are just filler for the rhythms, no? If you took the rhythms of a Wes solo alone, it would still make good music. Hmmmm might try that tomorrow.
'Rhythms first, notes second' DizzyLast edited by christianm77; 01-02-2014 at 11:17 PM.
-
I certainly agree with Mr Beaumont in regards to Hall's modern approach to phrasing, His lines certainly don't sound like Joe pass or Wes. Hall is a very motific player, he builds on his ideas. Though, I'm not saying he is better than Wes, just that he had a more modern approach to improvising.
-
"We" do?
-
It's either "kitchy bebop grandpa music" or it's "too nerdy"... Make up your mind, Richb
-
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Last edited by christianm77; 01-02-2014 at 11:22 PM.
-
Originally Posted by christianm77
Totally agree about Wes. And yes, he started playing when he was 21, but everything he did (e.g. learning Charlie Christian solos note for note) moved him forward, without many (any?) wrong moves. Scott LaFaro started playing bass pretty late too, and Metheny and Birelli started young. Thing is, right from the start they all moved in a pretty straight line toward greatness. The rest of us take much more twisted paths, and ultimately, we realize that we just have to do it step by step and take it as far as we can. It's as you said before, there are no quick hacks.
Gibson Les Paul '50s Tribute
Today, 12:39 AM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos