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  1. #151

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    Quote Originally Posted by cophinos
    Thank you all for your help.

    They require a jazz standard and a blues. I have decided to prepare All the things you are as a standard, while for the blues I still don't know. If anyone could give some advice about it, I would ve very grateful!

    So: after thinking about what all of you have written, I came up with a six-hour practice routine:

    1 hour: Repertoire (starting with All the things you are and the blues; the long-term goal is to learn fifty tunes)
    1 hour: Technique (Scales*, chords**, arpeggios*** and drill exercises; fifteen minutes for each one)
    1 hour: Transcription (Starting with Hank Mobley and Paul Desmond)
    1 hour: Methods (Jody Fisher - Beginning Jazz Guitar; Bert Ligon - Connecting Chords with Linear Harmony; Mark Levine - Jazz Theory)
    30 minutes: Improvisation (Using IRealPro)
    30 minutes: Solfège (Required in italian conservatories)
    30 minutes: Sight reading (William Leavitt - Reading Studies for Guitar)
    30 minutes: Ear training (Perfect ear?)

    * Umberto Fiorentino - Scale!
    ** Rick Peckham - Berklee Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
    *** Mimi Fox - Guitar Arpeggio Studies on Jazz Standards

    I hope I covered everything you said. What do you think?
    It looks great. I'd offer some ideas ...

    IRealPro and repertoire can be the same thing. Here's one way: Pick a tune. Start with a tempo that's easy. Set IRealPro for 13 repeats changing the key by a 4th each chorus. First time through, play the melody in 12 keys. You repeat the starting key. Then, start all over and comp through every key.

    Now, transcription and repertoire also overlap. All the Things You Are is a great tune. Hank Mobley has a nice youtube video on it which is at a moderate tempo. And, youtube allows you to slow it down, just click on the gear icon. Or, strip the audio and put it into Transcribe or the Amazing Slow Downer.

    So, now you know the melody and the chords and can handle them in any key. You also know a Hank Mobley solo.

    Time to think about Levine's book (and Mimi's). The idea now is to figure out the scale and arp that apply to each chord. And, you may have an idea, from listening to a lot of jazz, what a jazz solo can sound like. Mark up a chart with your scale choices and go through 13 choruses with IRealPro. If you get stuck on a chord, slow the tempo of IRealPro down and try it again. Do it in multiple parts of the neck.

    Different players recommend different ways to do this. Some go with melodic cells. Others make a point of playing the same interval for each chord, like one chorus of 3rds, another of 5ths etc.

    I like the idea of playing a melodic idea out of a scale and, when it's time to change to the next scale, start with the note in the new scale that's closest to the last one you played in the old scale. That makes a really smooth transition.

    Mimi's book has some ideas on how to use an arp for one chord against a different chord -- which is a fundamental element of jazz.

    Then, if you have saved any time by putting transcription, repertoire and IrealPro together, I'd suggest playing with the best group of jazz players you can, and as often as possible. You might need to organize this yourself. My main tip is to make sure that the bassist and drummer like playing with each other.

    Record everything you play in a group setting and critique it. The first thing to focus on is time-feel. Even the simplest ideas can sound good if they're played with a good feel. But, no matter how great an idea might be potentially, it will not sound good if the time is bad.

    A thought about blues: for the audition, write your own. If you have to use somebody else's try Nana by Moacir Santos. Use a 12 bar blues for the solos.

    For learning scales and arps, apparently most people do this based on geometric patterns. An alternative is learning the fingerboard and learning the notes in the scales and arps you use, by name - and then finding them as you need them, without memorizing the dots on a grid diagrams. In the long run, both approaches have value and will eventually converge.

    If a year of doing this doesn't get you through the audition, well, it must be a tough room.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #152

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    If you are concerned mostly about the audition, I recommend you give that the most attention.

    Some of us went through a study group of the book Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing by Joe Elliot and had good results. I've been at this for a long time, 40+ years; I have a lot of books on the topic, this was the most beneficial book I have gone through. And, it's completely on point of what you need for the audition.

    Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing - Thread Index

  4. #153

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    Given that you only have one year, or even less, and specifically for Improv study, I wouldn't worry too much about all that building block stuff of guide tones and arpeggios etc. even though I recommended one book from Joseph Alexander that does a little bit of that.

    Why?

    Because if you are already practicing your basic arpeggios as I mentioned, Connecting Chords With Linear Harmony will take care of all of that with the "outlines". That book condenses repeatable, time tested, widely used and "embellishable" patterns extracted from a very broad variety of master jazz soloists (and a few classical masters like Bach for that matter) so that you don't have to do years of research to get to the same place. In that regard it is extremely efficient and effective. There are many jazz pattern books out there but they are based on the various author's individual ideas/preferences in most cases. ("learn how to play author XYZ's II-V-Is", in other words). It's not about playing just chord tones and arpeggios anyway. Those are the starting points from which you have to embellish. Ligon's book starts you out doing that from the get go. That can save you a lot of time.

    And remember, after you get some of these outlines into your DNA, force yourself to improvise frequently. Write or simply memorize your own solos. What are your best ideas? How can you get to the point where you don't have to generate those ideas by trial and error (composing). The answer is by having so much jazz vocabulary in your DNA (mind and hands) that you think in jazz, you breath in jazz. Drill the vocab to the point you can play it with your eyes closed, chewing gum and standing on your head, if you know what I mean. To the point it's reflexive, impulsive. Unless your a genius, it's the only way.

    And transcribing? At most do two solos, maybe 48 bars max in one year. There will be time for that later, for now you need to play. You might be better off transcribing one short solo, while playing a solo or two from existing transcriptions.

    One year is not very much time at all.
    Last edited by Jazzstdnt; 10-18-2018 at 10:36 PM.

  5. #154

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    Just yesterday an old friend who had been playing mandolin in bluegrass bands mentioned that he decided to learn jazz guitar.

    He signed up for lessons with a locally well known guitarist, but complained that the lessons seemed random, as if the teacher wasn't planning ahead and didn't really have a structured way of teaching.

    I imagine that there have been multiple threads on this ... is there a consensus about how to teach jazz guitar to someone who can already finger a fretted instrument?

    My own path to it is not all that helpful, because I never really was exposed to a structured program except as a beginner.

    I imagine that Berklee has a pretty good idea of how to do it, with ear training, theory and specific performance skills.

    I've had some teachers who started with techniques -- so, for example, I had to learn scales and arps. I can't say that I got a lot of detail on how to apply them though.

    I had other teachers who started with tunes. One began with Don't Blame Me. He taught me a nice chord melody. He wrote out all the chords on a grid, circled the root, and told me to learn all 12 keys. That was how I learned all but the basic chords. He never taught soloing, but I imagine that his approach would have been to point out that the tune started on a Cmaj7 and show me how to play over it, with scale(s), arps, pentatonics or whatever. Then, a couple of beats later, show me how to play over the next chord. And tell me to work out the same concepts in all keys.

    I think I'd probably have learned more efficiently with the second approach, but that doesn't make it best for others.

    I have never had a teacher assign a transcription task, although I think it would have been a good idea. Same for ear training.

    Thoughts?

  6. #155

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    Yes of course it's relatively simple, you just have to separate some of those things. Ear training and theory are required - but are NOT instrumental studies. Before we focus on instrumental studies look at how the undergrad music topics are/were traditionally organized:


    1. Theory, harmony, ear training, sight singing
    2. keyboard proficiency
    3. compositional form
    4. counterpoint
    5. composition
    6. history
    7. acoustics
    8. music literature
    9. ensemble


    In a Jazz Studies program Arranging classes may substitute for Form and Music Literature, and Jazz History may be thrown in. Also, in more recent times technology has moved into even traditional studies: MIDI and recording techniques or example.
    Last edited by Jazzstdnt; 10-20-2018 at 03:44 PM.

  7. #156

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    So for instrumental studies it can break down like so:

    Technique
    Etudes and studies
    Repertoire
    Reading
    Transcription
    (ensemble - we covered that above)

    Throw in 3-5 levels of Improvisation plus 2-3 levels of Arranging and you have a Jazz studies program. Ta da!

    AND - Everything is leveled. Upper and lower division or Frosh through Senior. Just like it should be/is when you're in elementary, junior high and high school as you prepare for being a music major or professional. Every level is more challenging/advanced than the previous.

    And this extends into grad school for performance majors.


    Yeah, Berklee has it down, but doesn't do much post grad although they are starting to change that. So does UNT, which is a more traditional Jazz Studies program. Check out their course material on their website from Freshman through grad school for jazz studies performance majors.

  8. #157

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    Do you know what Improvisation is ? Then take the next step, jazz improvisation.

    Your list and many of the posts have some good ideas for working on technique.... you need guitar technique and then jazz technique.

    It's not memorize and perform.

    You also need to know how to improvise when comping. Jazz guitarist spend most of their time... not soloing.

    Spend more time on rhythmic studies... good rhythmic skills and GOOD TIME ... will get you further than any melodic and harmonic skills.

    Improvisation has technical skills and performance skills.... they're different.

    coming from a classical background...

    40% rhythmic studies
    40% harmonic skills
    10% tunes (FORMS of tunes)
    10% melodic improv... or less

  9. #158

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Just yesterday an old friend who had been playing mandolin in bluegrass bands mentioned that he decided to learn jazz guitar.

    He signed up for lessons with a locally well known guitarist, but complained that the lessons seemed random, as if the teacher wasn't planning ahead and didn't really have a structured way of teaching.

    I imagine that there have been multiple threads on this ... is there a consensus about how to teach jazz guitar to someone who can already finger a fretted instrument?
    There seems to be some consistency, if not consensus. Imitate-Assimilate-Innovate is fairly universal although not everyone calls it that by a long shot. But when you stand back and look at what they're teaching...

    Yes it's difficult to teach because the music is not composed for the most part. Can you imagine how difficult other styles like classical would be to teach, if the teacher were required to compose it all himself? It's relatively easy to teach written music, as opposed to jazz - if you want real results for your jazz students that is.

    Another problem - the music isn't really leveled. The best solos were played by masters who were creating art without consideration as to how some student might approach it. There are some jazz etudes out there now which helps but...

    I have found jazz instructors to be all over the map, while jazz instruction materials have been more consistent. Kind of interesting.

  10. #159

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    There seems to be some consistency, if not consensus. Imitate-Assimilate-Innovate is fairly universal although not everyone calls it that by a long shot. But when you stand back and look at what they're teaching...

    Yes it's difficult to teach because the music is not composed for the most part. Can you imagine how difficult other styles like classical would be to teach, if the teacher were required to compose it all himself? It's relatively easy to teach written music, as opposed to jazz - if you want real results for your jazz students that is.

    Another problem - the music isn't really leveled. The best solos were crated by masters who were creating art without consideration as to how some student might approach it. There are some jazz etudes out there now which helps but...

    I have found jazz instructors to be all over the map, while jazz instruction materials have been more consistent. Kind of interesting.
    Perhaps another point is that it has changed. When I was of college age around 1966, I didn't know of a single college jazz program. Maybe some existed, but I don't recall ever reading about one in the college guides I consulted in those pre-Internet years.

    So, at that point, the old system was still in place. You learned from records and from the instructional books of the time -- like Mel Bay and maybe Mickey Baker. After you knew some tunes, you could get in a band.

    Every time you didn't know a tune, you went home and figured it out from a record, sheet music or fake book. That wasn't so easy back then. Records cost about three times the hourly minimum wage and most people didn't have a great many. Sheet music wasn't cheap either. There was one fake book that I recall -- which is the one made from index cards, three to a page. That was helpful, at least if the tune you wanted was in there.

    Then, on the bandstand you either picked up on what other people were doing, or not.

    I grew up in NYC, so there were jazz teachers around. The one that the better guitarists in my area went to, some of them anyway, was Sal Salvador. I don't know how he approached teaching it.

    Carl Barry taught me something about Chuck Wayne's system -- which I think Chuck had written up, but I didn't know how to get a copy of Chuck's article. My local library did not have back issues of Downbeat, or anything else in which the article might have been published.

    Mostly it was listen, figure stuff out on your own, and sink or swim.

    Now, it's different. You can find almost anything you can think of on youtube and slow it down. There are a zillion methods -- and plenty of choices for a structured approach to learning. You can find just about anything written out for you. Colleges have codified how to learn and how to assess progress.

    This makes playing jazz guitar more accessible than ever. What has happened, I think, is that some less talented players can assemble the skills to play decent jazz guitar. At same time, it has accelerated the inevitable progress of the truly talented, with the result that there are some truly awesome, well educated, players making very sophisticated music.

  11. #160

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    For learning to improvise, I recommend looking into Jimmy Bruno’s online school. If you do what he says, he will start getting you to connect your playing to your ears.

    There are other online alternatives available as well. I have done Bruno’s school for about a year and a half (and he was gone for about six months of that time, but is back and better than before). The change in my playing is remarkable.

    Also, if you have six hours a day to practice, I suggest you spend at least half of that seriously listening to stuff. Either just listening, or listening and learning to sing the lines you like.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  12. #161

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    Right now I'm going through the Mickey Baker jazz book and I finding the chord ideas very helpful. The thing I have been trying to do is getting better at soloing. What are somethings I should do to get better. I have Charlie Parker Omnibook and learned 2 heads and some of the solo in one. But how do I transfer that to my own playing? I was told to look and analyze my favorite lick and transpose to different keys.
    Another idea I thought of was writing solos based on chord progressions for my favorite standards. For example I love how High the Moon, so with that I was thinking of just writing lines for those changes, would that be a good approach?
    All in all im looking for any tips that would help me getting better at soloing over jazz changes!

  13. #162

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    You've started two threads on the same subject.

    All in all I'm looking for any tips that would help me getting better at soloing over jazz changes!
    That's what everybody wants, my friend :-)

    Listen to what jazz players do. But what you hear there is the result of years and years of dedicated practice, study and playing + talent.

    So start at the beginning and get into it. No other way.

  14. #163

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    Here are a couple of ideas from someone who also struggles with progressing with improvisation. When I was in high school 50+ years ago (sheesh), my first guitar teacher was a jazz man. He tried to teach me to improvise. I wasn't anywhere near ready for that at that young age but the technique he used has value. Pick a song with an easy chord structure and a melody you can't get out of your head. How about "John Brown's Body"? Find or create a backing track with either a cheap looper pedal or Guitar Pro or whatever. Find a You Tube or CD example of a jazz version of the song (Oscar Peterson for JBB for example). Play the CD until it wears out. Take a section and find the notes. Write them down. Simplify it first just hitting a few tones in each chord. Find the groove. You can do that with really only a few notes either side of or in between the melody. Keep time after you can do that. Use the ideas in your instruction book (finding guide tones, chromatics, thirds etc) and just PLAY. It will sound really bad at first. Refine it using ideas from the CD. You don't have to find a guitar CD. Piano, sax, flute, violin, any instrument that plays an improvised melody line. Be patient.

    Another idea is to purchase a few Bob Conti video's. Bob's marketing pitch is to forget about scales and modes and just play. He walks through some notated improv selections and will help get you comfortable with the concept.

    There is no "best" way to do this. There is no advice that will cause a miracle to happen and you will become proficient over night. Keep plugging until you find something that works for you.

    Cincy

  15. #164

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cincy2
    Another idea is to purchase a few Bob Conti video's. Bob's marketing pitch is to forget about scales and modes and just play. He walks through some notated improv selections and will help get you comfortable with the concept.Cincy
    That's an excellent suggestion!

    The name of the Robert Conti DVD series is "The Ticket To Improv" and if anything is going to get you to be able to start improvising solos over famous jazz standards that series will.

    Here's a link to his page on the Chord Melody Guitar Music website where you will be able to watch video samples from the series.

    Regards,
    Steven Herron
    The Ticket To Improv Series By Robert Conti

  16. #165

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    The iconic figures of jazz, the canon of the artform, the language and attitude of soloing came to be from one place: the experience of playing with others in real time. The community of the big band still stands as unique in the musics of the world; the collective knowledge and experience of individuals shared with the individual through sharing. This is the important glue that holds together any other supplemental materials you can get through extrinsic sources (books, institutions, etc).
    There is an ephemeral process of self discovery that is the essence of the art of soloing. It's a real time process.
    Find others. Find a partner. Find a singer you can hold down the form for. Find a playing partner you can learn to listen to. Find a teacher and then ask him/her for the names of others who want to play.
    People can tell you all sorts of ways to solo, but you will never do it until you play with another, fail, assess your resources, play again, experience the discovery of what works and improve.

    Use the forum and see if there are others in your area who want to play.
    David

  17. #166

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    As important as the chord changes are, don't overlook the value of the melody of the tune as a source of improvisation ideas. After all it will automatically contain a lot of useful information e.g. chord tones, rhythmic interest etc.

    Google 'Lee Konitz 10-step method' for some examples of how Lee Konitz (a brilliant improviser) gradually transforms the melody into an improvised solo.

  18. #167

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    Writing a solo is great. Heck, write 3 solos over the same tune.

    OP, what are you doing now when you practice tunes?

  19. #168

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    It depends on your current level.

    Basics:

    1. Play the melody/theme

    2. Improvise a variation of the melody
    • Play a melodic phrase.
    • Pay attention to rhythm, tempo and timing
    • Repeat the phrase with variation when the harmony changes
    • Pay attention to the end note of each phrase
    • Make use of long notes and pauses, double stops, octaves and bends.
    • Pay attention to your slots (when to play and when not to play)


    3. Practice

    • Train muscle memory

    Internalize a library of licks and patterns; building blocks when improvising phrases.
    Practice modes, scales and arpeggios to internalize intervals on the fretboard.
    Scat

    • Train your ears

    Internalize the sound of different modes and scales and arpeggios.
    Listen to music. Listen, listen. Break free from bonds of guitar oriented music.

    • Tips

    Copy an advanced solo, try to nail it, note by note.
    Write an advanced solo, internalize it.
    Copy a short lick, re-use it in different songs
    Play with eyes closed and ears open

    Advanced:

    1. Break free from your old licks and patterns.
    2. Play long notes to extend harmony
    3. Improvise over songs that modulate over different keys.
    4. Increase intervals between notes
    5. Alternate between chords and lines
    6. Move in and out from the scale
    7. Compose melodies

    Good luck

  20. #169

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    "It is not possible to improvise." I'm not making this up. Those aren't my words but I am quoting an unquestionable authority I read somewhere. So I stand by that. But don't quote me.
    David
    I think you jest, but I had a very interesting conversation last night with a piano player who is regarded as a monster improvisor. He tours the world and sits in with the very best. I have seen him live dozens of times, and every show is unique, even every solo is unique. Yet he confessed that he doesn't think he really improvises!

    Further, he's convinced that many of the great so called improvisors don't really improvise either! Heresy!!

    OK, what I think he means is that he learns dozens of jazz "words" and "sentences" that he strings together for certain chord types. It sure sounds like he's improvising because he's able to sound fresh continually, but he's just putting sentences together instead of individual letters together to form new words on the fly.

    Now, those of us who enjoy putting letters together to form new words each time are either playing slowly and targeting chord tones, or are able to apply chunks of CST derived cells for each chord type... neither of which sounds like the authentic language of the Boppers.

    Personally I enjoy trying to actually improvise, but that part of my playing is just me making up melodies that don't always land chord tones, but still sound resolved or right because I get ok at "making" it sound right by how I follow up on an idea that pops out (delayed resolution, or turning into a sequence etc etc).

    The other part of my playing comprises prefab fast lines that i learn in 5 positions, that are dropped in when I can think of them in time. I try to work a lot on starting them on different parts of the bar, or different strings. I don't think I'm yet good enough to sound like it's all improv, but it's the path i'm on. I'd like to be 50/50 when it comes to prefab lines vs 100% real improv, but I'd love to one day hide the seams well enough so that other players can't tell...

  21. #170

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patriot81
    Right now I'm going through the Mickey Baker jazz book and I finding the chord ideas very helpful. The thing I have been trying to do is getting better at soloing. What are somethings I should do to get better. I have Charlie Parker Omnibook and learned 2 heads and some of the solo in one. But how do I transfer that to my own playing? I was told to look and analyze my favorite lick and transpose to different keys.
    Another idea I thought of was writing solos based on chord progressions for my favorite standards. For example I love how High the Moon, so with that I was thinking of just writing lines for those changes, would that be a good approach?
    All in all im looking for any tips that would help me getting better at soloing over jazz changes!

    Where are you in your development? Do you play regularly with other people? Do you know many tunes? Are you pretty good, but somehow looking to go in another direction or break out of a rut, or are you a beginner who doesn't know how to get started with soloing yet? Somewhere in between? It's very hard to advise people on what to do without knowing what they can do.

    All that said, my advice is nearly always to learn tunes, and play with other people. The times in my life when I've made the most progress as a musician have been when I've done that. Practicing and studying is important, but to learn jazz, you have to play jazz, which requires repertoire and ensemble playing.

    John

  22. #171

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Google 'Lee Konitz 10-step method' for some examples of how Lee Konitz (a brilliant improviser) gradually transforms the melody into an improvised solo.
    'Konitz is a master of the art of jazz improvisation. The alto saxophonist on Miles Davis' historic Birth Of The Cool sessions'

    Shurly shome mishtake ?

  23. #172

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    You know there is a gap between

    a) pesronal creative power on one side and
    b) tools and skills to embody this power

    There is always this gap... even the greatest, most talented musicians have this gap.

    Because you are are the source of what you are doing in music.

    I do not believe there is a really systematic way to become more creative, one either has or not (but there is chance it opens up later! There is always a chance).

    So developeing the "a" section is very individual if ever possible
    It is the mistery of human peronality and individuality.
    You know there is no progress in how tree grows or rain drops fall. It can be dofferent but there is no improvement.
    So are the artists - their maturity is mostly connected with long practical experience, with development of their techniques (''b'' section) in relation to more or less stable 'creative ideas'
    (ever trying to fill this gap)

    there is possibility to develope the ''b'' section. It can be better or wors organized. It can be described in clear terms
    It won't subsitute the lack of creativity but it can be a vehicle to support when the ''a'' thing does not work.

    So to say - it will let you sit on oars when the wind is gone.

    But where and why the vessel goes - no-can say except you...

  24. #173

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    Some additional great advice.



    Cincy

  25. #174

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    And another excellent lesson.



    Cincy

  26. #175

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    Learn as many tunes as you can, listen to as much jazz as you can, and transcribe as much as you can!

  27. #176

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alter
    Learn as many tunes as you can, listen to as much jazz as you can, and transcribe as much as you can!
    ^this, but you need to accept that it takes time. Pretty sure I played over a thousand bad jazz solos before I played one that didn't completely and totally suck. Also, checking out live jazz is very helpful...even more so once you "know" some tunes i.e. you know the vanilla changes by heart and can follow the changes while the pros are taking their solos.

  28. #177

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    Work on your ears!

    Sing, sing, sing!

    As JCat said, internalize the SOUND of the tune you are improvising on.

    And, play with other people.

  29. #178

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    Playing alone is OK. You have to put in the time to get to where you have the reserve capacity to play with others.

    Playing with others is good. A lot of things are learned doing this preparing being able to perform.

    Performing with others is better. This is the real threshold. Playing live is emergent, magic, and special.

    Having performed as the guitarist of a house band that hosted over a decade of weekly four hour shows, playing countless songs on stage live hearing them for the first time, playing them with guest musicians to whom having been introduced just moments before; because improvisation comes from public experience and private confidence encountering the unknown... I have to call that best. The closer and sooner you can get to doing something like that, the best opportunity you have of really learning how to get better at improvising.

  30. #179

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    It's two things.

    1. Being able to think of a good melody over the chord changes of a tune.

    2. Being able to play that melody as you think of it.

    For the first one, you need to be able to scat sing, or at least think of, a cool melody. I think you get that by listening, training your ear and doing a lot of scat singing.

    For the second one, you practice playing everything you hear and think. So, for example, if you're watching tv, play along with the background music.

    Eventually you get bored with your own scat singing, or you can't do it fast enough. At that point, a thousand things that get discussed on here regularly may help.

  31. #180

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    Where are you in your development? Do you play regularly with other people? Do you know many tunes? Are you pretty good, but somehow looking to go in another direction or break out of a rut, or are you a beginner who doesn't know how to get started with soloing yet? Somewhere in between? It's very hard to advise people on what to do without knowing what they can do.

    All that said, my advice is nearly always to learn tunes, and play with other people. The times in my life when I've made the most progress as a musician have been when I've done that. Practicing and studying is important, but to learn jazz, you have to play jazz, which requires repertoire and ensemble playing.

    John
    I consider myself to be a late intermediate early advanced level. I play rock blues, and classical style guitar, so figuring and such don't give me any problems. I guess the thing im trying to connect is theoretical ideas and apply, for example using certain scale and lines over the different changes.
    Like you said, I will play more jazz music and apply the ideas that I know of and future ideas that I learn to the standards I love.
    Plus too im super excited, because I know what I want to go for when it comes to playing jazz and improvising, its just trying to get to the sound I want to achieve. Lol sorry if I sound all over the place.

  32. #181

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Writing a solo is great. Heck, write 3 solos over the same tune.

    OP, what are you doing now when you practice tunes?
    Right now my routine is that I will learn the chord changes and work on the melody. After or even during, I like to analyze the piece and try to figure out what scales can work with each chord. Then I try to find a backing track that's slow to medium and play along with it.

  33. #182

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    Where are you in your development? Do you play regularly with other people? Do you know many tunes? Are you pretty good, but somehow looking to go in another direction or break out of a rut, or are you a beginner who doesn't know how to get started with soloing yet? Somewhere in between? It's very hard to advise people on what to do without knowing what they can do.

    All that said, my advice is nearly always to learn tunes, and play with other people. The times in my life when I've made the most progress as a musician have been when I've done that. Practicing and studying is important, but to learn jazz, you have to play jazz, which requires repertoire and ensemble playing.

    John
    I would say im late intermediate,iediate to early advanced level. I have a band thats more in line with soul/r&b and we practice and play out often. I guess I would I am trying to take my playing to another level. I have always loved jazz, especially bebop, but kinda feared going all in because I didn't know much theory, but now I know a good amount of classical theory, which I know can apply to jazz, so im ready to go all in for it.

    Like you said, I just need to play more jazz music, and study up on a bit of the jazz theory ideas to get better. I don't know of any local jazz groups looking for a guitar player, but I do know of a weekly jazz jam session that I probably should get involved in.

  34. #183

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patriot81
    Right now my routine is that I will learn the chord changes and work on the melody. After or even during, I like to analyze the piece and try to figure out what scales can work with each chord. Then I try to find a backing track that's slow to medium and play along with it.
    Have you spent time with arpeggios? In general, when you learn a tune, how many different places on the neck are you playing the chords? Are you adding extensions/alterations or playing "by the chart?"

  35. #184

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Have you spent time with arpeggios? In general, when you learn a tune, how many different places on the neck are you playing the chords? Are you adding extensions/alterations or playing "by the chart?"
    I've actually have been working on arpeggios but only in a isolated manner. What would be the best way to practice them in a way that is beneficial to the songs I'm learning?
    And I'm only learning one position for the chords, how many places would you recommend to learn the songs?
    And I'm playing strictly by the chart, but have been aware that on recording my favorite players will embellish melodies

  36. #185

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patriot81
    I would say im late intermediate,iediate to early advanced level. I have a band thats more in line with soul/r&b and we practice and play out often. I guess I would I am trying to take my playing to another level. I have always loved jazz, especially bebop, but kinda feared going all in because I didn't know much theory, but now I know a good amount of classical theory, which I know can apply to jazz, so im ready to go all in for it.

    Like you said, I just need to play more jazz music, and study up on a bit of the jazz theory ideas to get better. I don't know of any local jazz groups looking for a guitar player, but I do know of a weekly jazz jam session that I probably should get involved in.
    Going to a weekly jam is a great idea. As to theory -- there's really not that much to know, at least not to get started. If you already know a good amount of classical theory, you probably know enough (theory is theory; I vi ii V means the same thing in classical and jazz). Learn tunes, go play.

    John

  37. #186

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patriot81
    Right now my routine is that I will learn the chord changes and work on the melody. After or even during, I like to analyze the piece and try to figure out what scales can work with each chord. Then I try to find a backing track that's slow to medium and play along with it.
    In my view this is backwards. First, you learn the melody...and you do it by ear, by lifting it from a recording. Invest in Amazing Slow Downer and/or Transcribe software so you can slow down and loop stuff. Always learn melodies by ear. Then play them in different keys.

    Then try to figure out the chord changes the same way but, at your level (and often at mine!!), it's I think OK to refer to chord charts, but you want to get away from the sheet music ASAP.

    If you can do this - learn melodies by ear and then play them in different keys - and memorize chord changes so that you build an internal repertoire of tunes, and then pick up like one jazz lick a month by ear and really work it, then you will make real progress which is very roughly proportional to the number of tunes you learn in this manner. Disregard this advice at your own peril!

    This is all very hard at the beginning but then gets much easier over times. Once you get to around 30 tunes, things really start opening up.

  38. #187

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patriot81
    I consider myself to be a late intermediate early advanced level. I play rock blues....
    I'm sorry, but not only are you a Jazz beginner, but time spent in Rock and Blues has made you entrenched in certain habits that will make earning Jazz improvisation much, much harder. Seriously, and I welcome anyone on the forum to disagree, but you are better off learning Jazz improv from scratch than from a blues/rock background.

    The bebop way is to learn lines against every chord type, in every position. Dozens of lines and devices of varying lengths (years of work). Then getting good at stitching them together so that your solos come out differently every time (many more years). Bebop is NOT working out which scale to play for each chord, that's a totally different sound that doesn't really sound like "Jazz" - try it and you'll soon see!

    These "lines" are the Jazz vocabulary, and there is no one source. Sure, there are books (Baker, Bergonzi, Coker etc) but to be a real Jazz player you'll want to learn it like all the greats did. Think again about what cosmic gumbo meant when he posted that link earlier on, "Nights at the turntable". It's not just a play on words "Knights of the round table", but an allusion to how people used to learn Jazz back in the day, by spending hours every week lifting lines off records. Sounds unnecessary and archaic right? Until you realise that all the players who learned that way are still considered the gold standard examples.

    So lift your own lines of choice, that way you will gather your own hand picked vocabulary, and that's the fun bit.

  39. #188

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    I still can't get over Sonny Rollins talking in an interview about how he, Jackie McLean, Miles, and all his peer NYC cats were bebop experts at 19, 20 years old, and these guys were 8-10 younger than Bird, Monk and Bud Powell, whom he referred to as the bebop professors....

    It's true, these guys had the vocab and chops at 20. Even Sonny refers to listening and copying Colman Hawkins records ad nauseam. But he had an environment where he could apply it with other musicians on a daily basis. Nowadays, academia is a 4th rate substitute for the original tradition.

  40. #189

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    I think we all want to 'keep getting better at soloing over jazz changes', it's a lifelong process that never stops. Even Pat Metheny said he is an eternal student of the guitar. You've already started that process by learning some Parker phrases and thinking about writing your own solos. Keep doing stuff like that. Personally I always found this process to be interesting enough, even 'fun', to keep doing it, despite any frustration along the way.

    In my case, I suppose I followed princeplanet's approach i.e. mainly copying stuff off jazz records until I could make up my own lines. I also learned enough theory and technical stuff (scales, arps etc) to support that process, however that was not my primary focus.

    But I was able to play some decent lines over a simple tune like Autumn Leaves after a year or so, I don't think it needs to take years to get to a point like that.

  41. #190

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    Compare and contrast.




  42. #191

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    Mimi Fox interview

    Mimi Fox Expands Jazz Guitar from the Inside Out - GuitarPlayer.com

    'As an educator, what is the most prevalent problem with jazz guitar students?
    For one thing, they don’t practice enough. They want it overnight, and they don’t work on essentials such as arpeggios. Also, I typically encounter two types of students: those that are devoted and put in the hours, but don’t have a good time feel or don’t swing or have some other serious issues musically; and those that have a lot of innate musical talent, but are lazy. The study of any art form requires tremendous discipline, and jazz is paradoxical in that all this discipline is so that when you get up on stage you can play freely.
    Another thing is that students don’t do enough transcribing. They think that somehow they’ll get their own sound by osmosis. And, although it is actually by osmosis—it’s an osmosis that has to happen from listening and working to acquire important harmonic and melodic data by really digging into the music. I can play dozens of solos note-for-note that are still in my head from the first transcriptions that I did, and that’s because I spent so much time listening and then writing those solos down and tapping out the rhythms. So, again, paradoxically you get your own sound by listening to other people. But you don’t get it by saying you are going to get it—you have to work at it.'

    I fall into a third category, talentless and lazy.

  43. #192

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    So right now I'm going through the Mickey baker as my main course of study, and to implement those ideas, I have the CP onimibook and a book of Charlie Christian solo, I figure analyzing what that did and try to incorporate their ideas into my playing would help.

  44. #193

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    I’ve found that singing along with your soloing — like George Benson, for example — instantly makes it more musical and interesting. The act of vocalizing triggers something magical in the brain that translates to the fingers.

  45. #194

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    I'm learning to improvise also but my case there's a catch when trying to improve with practicing a lot.
    After a some days of all sorts of routines, the rhythm gets snappy, more confidence, you know all the technical shape gets better. But it tends to get automatic. "Better" but it's a little numb, a little predictable. Not fully satisfying. Recording my solo, seeing that it IS actually better now but not pleasing in the right way.. that's quite frustrating. And on top of that, I know bloody sure that I've done better with way less knowledge, skill etc.

    Now I'm after getting "emotionally" connected to the guitar, so that just about any note would make me feel good.. even the funky wrong ones

    *mini-compositions. Just pick a short chord progression and try create a good passage over it. "good" meaning a "lightbulb" moment.
    *playing lots of simple hit tunes by ear, connecting them always to my scale patterns that I use.
    *listen how a single long note FEELS against another(bass) note, or a chord.
    *listen before playing a thing. If doing that, I can start hearing the new note or chord in my mind. It's a real thing, this really happens

    Well, those are my mind games. Seems to be working, sometimes surprisingly well.

  46. #195

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    Also when learning solos, what are somethings I should be doing to while learning the solos in order to be useful for my own playing outside of what im learning. I have heard things like find lines that I like and transpose them to every key and to make variations of those licks.

  47. #196

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    Quote Originally Posted by dot75
    Mimi Fox interview

    Mimi Fox Expands Jazz Guitar from the Inside Out - GuitarPlayer.com

    'As an educator, what is the most prevalent problem with jazz guitar students?
    For one thing, they don’t practice enough. They want it overnight, and they don’t work on essentials such as arpeggios. Also, I typically encounter two types of students: those that are devoted and put in the hours, but don’t have a good time feel or don’t swing or have some other serious issues musically; and those that have a lot of innate musical talent, but are lazy. The study of any art form requires tremendous discipline, and jazz is paradoxical in that all this discipline is so that when you get up on stage you can play freely.
    Another thing is that students don’t do enough transcribing. They think that somehow they’ll get their own sound by osmosis. And, although it is actually by osmosis—it’s an osmosis that has to happen from listening and working to acquire important harmonic and melodic data by really digging into the music. I can play dozens of solos note-for-note that are still in my head from the first transcriptions that I did, and that’s because I spent so much time listening and then writing those solos down and tapping out the rhythms. So, again, paradoxically you get your own sound by listening to other people. But you don’t get it by saying you are going to get it—you have to work at it.'

    I fall into a third category, talentless and lazy.
    Mimi is an encyclopedia of jazz vocabulary. You can hear it when she solos. But, to me, the unique thing about her playing is her intense sense of time. She was a drummer first, and attributes it to that. The word crisp doesn't do her justice. Also, she has massive chops.

  48. #197

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    Here a clip of me improvising on How High the Moon, I tried several things
    I tried to improvise based on the melody
    then I tried to solo on the big strings with a kind of figure I made up
    I was learning ornithology by Charlie Parker and found they are the same changes, so I used some ideas from the start of his solo on there.
    Feel free to destroy me on this solo lol. Im trying!
    Attached Files Attached Files

  49. #198

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    Patriot -

    Well done. It's so refreshing to find an enquirer on here who doesn't just ask a question and then disappears. Not only have you stuck at it but you've had the BALLS to show us a clip. Brilliant.

    Okay, here's my reaction. First, too fast for a starter. HHTM isn't a beginner's tune. So, slow it down a tad and take it easy with an easier tune and chord progression. Autumn Leaves sounds a good idea.

    Then notes. It's not bad but, as I say, at that speed you're going to sacrifice note choices. I think it was Joe Pass who said if the backing is removed you should be able to make out the chords by the notes. I don't know if I'm making that clear.

    I can hear what you're doing. On what basis are you playing those lines? I know you said Charlie Parker but he's an expert and you have to know why you're playing what you're playing. Is it basically scales or playing around the chord shapes? Those are the two main approaches before it gets far more advanced.

    That's enough destruction (!). What do you say?

  50. #199

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Patriot -

    Well done. It's so refreshing to find an enquirer on here who doesn't just ask a question and then disappears. Not only have you stuck at it but you've had the BALLS to show us a clip. Brilliant.

    Okay, here's my reaction. First, too fast for a starter. HHTM isn't a beginner's tune. So, slow it down a tad and take it easy with an easier tune and chord progression. Autumn Leaves sounds a good idea.

    Then notes. It's not bad but, as I say, at that speed you're going to sacrifice note choices. I think it was Joe Pass who said, if the backing is removed, you should be able to make out the chords by the notes. I don't know if I'm making that clear.

    I can hear what you're doing. On what basis are you playing those lines? Is it basically scales or playing around the chord shape? Those are the two main approaches before it gets far more advanced.

    That's enough destruction (!). What do you say?
    Yeah, im liking this site lots of resource, but more importantly a good community, so I get to actually have feedback from more experienced player, I love to learn!
    I love that observation about playing too fast, I was listening to a Charlie Christian soloing on blues song last night and the was he developed without playing fast was crazy.
    Autumn Leaves is one song I need to learn, I should make a list of easier standards to learn.
    For this I was thinking in terms of scales, and trying to hit chord tones, mainly the roots to start for now, but since I know the song's melody, I think I may be hitting other tones without thinking of it too much.

  51. #200

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patriot81
    Im so used to do that in some of my rock and blues improvising, so thats probably why im doing it lol
    So maybe a mixture of running out of and having a small number of solo ideas.
    I need to learn how to have lines. Would things like playing through arpeggios be considered a line? In the Rose Room solo by Charlie Christian I'm learning I like some of his arpeggio ideas.
    Yes, arpeggios are lines, especially when they connect with each other. But don't rely on them too much, times have changed since Charlie Christian.

    As a matter of fact the CP Omnibook would probably have good ideas for lines. I haven't seen that book but one problem could be that some bebop lines aren't at all obvious. Simple scale lines and arpeggios are usually simple to understand but bebop language isn't always. Like I said, it's essential that one knows why one is playing what one plays. Otherwise it becomes mere imitation.

    Another point is the thing about solo ideas. I feel it's a real mistake (in fact I know it is) to try to hold an idea in one's head and then try to approximate it musically. It stifles playing. It's far, far better to know the chords and what one's basically supposed to be playing over them and then just let rip. Improvisation is walking a high wire without a safety net. It won't always be brilliant but it's better than trying to copy something preconceived. Experiment with it and see.

    I suppose you've been on to YouTube and found the vids of Rose Room. There's a transcription if you read music but there are also versions by cover players that'll show you where to put the fingers. All good stuff.