Short II V Progressions (One Bar)

[ba7159]

What should I do?

I've got an Abersold somewhere. I've got the omnibook.

Just learn as many?

[fep]

1) Play over just the V (like Joe Pass and many others)

2) Play only over the ii (like Pat Martino)

3) Address both chords as many do (if your playing 8th notes that's four notes per chord)

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Once you've got any of those approaches Frank mentions working for you, add the "suspended to resolved" movement of going from the root to the leading tone to it.

For example, over Dm7 G7, if you've got a G dominant thing goin' on, add some C-to-B sound to it. This will add more movement to it. The same thing works if you're just playing over Dm7.

[AmundLauritzen]

Learn as many one bar II-V patterns as you can.
Two bar II-V's offer a lot of liberty, because you can cram in more. This is where you can think subs, altered scale, side stepping and all that.
On the one bar II-Vs, you have to really make them count to make the changes!

Off the top of my head, here is something that would really outline Dm7 to G7, one bar. All 8ths:

------------------5--------
--------------3-6--5-3---
-------2-5-4--------------
-----3---------------------
---5-----------------------
---------------------------

Of course, the last two 8ths don't fit into the bar(They serve to complete the line as a separate entity), but you can always play over the barline as long as your next idea really gets down to business about outlining the next change.

"Confirmation" for instance is a very pattern demanding tune. I don't care what people say, because it IS.
And those who say it isn't and who are in the position to be able to say they play the tune well, have that liberty because they probably did practice patterns at one point. Their liberty is a result of that.
Or they are very aware of the changes and intuitively hear the II-V movement.

There are many ways to arrive at that. In the end it's all lines. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that learning one bar two fives that outline both chords cuts to the chase in helping you hear whats going on in two fives.

I'm not at all opposed to learning subs. Minor conversion, tritone sub, minor third sub etcetera. But I wouldn't practice those on a one bar II-V because there is not enough time to really hear it. I think it is best to learn to hear it on two bar II-Vs, or even better: four bar II-V's or complete II-V-I's.

[jtizzle]

Here's some pointers for ii-V's (not only for one bar ii-V's, applicable to any ii-V scenario, even a 4 bar ii followed by a 4 bar V)

First, learn the arpeggios to both chords. Depending on the amount of space you have, play it so you can get up to the 7th of the chord. So in a 1 bar ii-V, play them as 8th notes. In a 2 bar ii-V, you can get away with quarter notes, then move up to playing it in two octaves in 8th notes, or one octave coming back. I would try it starting on the root, then 3rd, then 5th, then 7th. I would also do it in reverse (so instead of 1-3-5-7, try 7-5-3-1 and all the inversions in reverse as well). Do it for both scales, then connect it. So if you're playing D-7 to G7, play D F A C - B D F G, there you're connecting by the least amount of space possible, and you want to try that by starting in different inversions, ending on different notes. I would even try different rhythmic values to change the point where you switch chords. Don't make it about fingering, make it about knowing the chord. Don't forget to do all keys.

Then you can take a step back, and only play half notes (or quarter notes, depending on the space you have) only the 3rds and 7ths. In a 2 bar ii-V, play them as half notes, so you get only one 3rd and one 7th in a measure. In a 1 bar ii-V, play them as quarter notes, so you get the 4 notes in a measure. Do that through the keys. Then add chromatic embellishments. Start by doing a half step below to the target note, then do from a diatonic step above (I say diatonic because it can change, it could either be half step or whole step. Then combine both, so you do a diatonic step above, to a half step below, to the target. For the note E, you would do F-D#-E (all surround E by half step), but for the note C you would do D-B-C (D is a whole step above).
Then mix this with the arpeggios, so do the arpeggios with the enclosures.

If you want to get more into it, you can think of substitutions. In this case, let's think of a 2 bar ii-V, where the first bar is ii, the second is V. Let's say in the key of C for now, so D-7 and G7. You can adapt it into the one bar ii-V.
Take away the D-7 and think G7 for two bars, see what you can do with a whole bar of thinking in G7. The way you play might create some tension that if you resolve at the CMaj7 would make it sound cool.
Do the same but only think of it as D-7. This is a little harder because it could sound like you're just noodling if you don't play the important notes of G7, but you can get this to sound good.
Another fun thing to do is to convert the V chord into a diminished chord, instead of G7, think of Bdim7 (or G7b9, or Ddim7, or Fdim7, or Abdim7), and maybe even try extending that back to the ii chord as well.

Tritone sub the G7, so while the chord is playing G7, you're line could imply a Db7, so you would go from D-7 to Db7. There would be some pretty hip clashes there. A step after that is to sub the ii chord as well, sub the D-7 for the ii of Db7, so make it Ab-7.

Try doing arpeggios and enclosures over all these things. I'm sure lines will just jump at you when you start doing this.

[ba7159]

I think I'll just read the Omnibook and go off Parker. I know way too much theory. I need to speak the language more.

[ba7159]

I'm not trying to be a dick. When I think theoretically I usually don't play unless I can reach a mindset, which in itself is constraining.

I have to read every note in the omnibook if I want to get there. It will take me some time.

[pierre richard]

good replies here on a subject that has no end to it....

I have 6 (yes 6) 96 page Archive spiral bound manuscript books I have filled in the past years of learning and studying our beloved guitar...in the Jazz vein...and many more pages and small booklets and books on the subject from not only guitar players but sax and trumpet players and piano players as well...

so many books so little time....but...

Time on the instrument...

[ba7159]

Yea I am just going to read the omnibook to get my sight-reading good and also analyze licks I need.

There are scales to learn but I don't think most players know that shit.

I think if I can get through some harmonies and then understand them it will be better. Chicken before egg or vice versa I suppose.

[PMB]

Here's a page of short major and minor ii-V-Is I made up some years ago for students. Nothing too out there, just core language/concepts.

[JakeAcci]

What do you want it to sound like?

[ba7159]

What do you want it to sound like?

Honestly at this point just getting through. I think there is a level of musicianship from playing bebop that I haven't obtained yet and I would like to.

I will look over what has been posted.

I am a horrible reader with jazz. Mainly flat keys and syncopations. So I'm kind of hoping the omni book will help. With both.

Thanks

[ba7159]

Well looking at the omnibook Parker doesn't do much always.

Look I've done exercises. I know the theory. I keep having trouble with these changes. I guess I will have to memorize patterns.

How do yall look at it? How do you practice these?

I'm an inconsistent player. Sometimes I'm creative sometimes I can't play shit. Of course I can always write something out.

[JakeAcci]

ba7159

a while back there was a discussion about transcription and someone asked me a question and I had a long response to it. I saved it because the question comes up often.

I know we aren't exactly talking about transcription, but we are talking about integrating vocabulary, and I addressed that, and I think the points from that post are relevant to this thread.

Anyway, Chromatics and Melodic Minor

maybe it's weird to quote myself, but the alternative is basically just writing out the same answer again.

[ba7159]

Yea man. I think I get caught up on paper sometimes.

[ba7159]

Is there a tab version of the omni book?

[ba7159]

Fuck that fucking stupid post if i want to learn it its fucking there

[JakeAcci]

Working from the notation will be much better in my opinion. With the notation, you have to understand the music (the notes) and then figure out how to apply the information to the entire guitar. With tab you are just given one fingering.

Also, reading is important.

Also, you can edit/delete posts.

Happy boppin.

[ba7159]

I understand the music. I know the theory. Not trying to be a dick. Not helpful.

[JakeAcci]

My intent was to be helpful, I apologize if it came out a different way; I'm just trying to be succinct/accurate.

Good luck with your playing.

[JensL]

I agree with Jake that a tab version of the Omnibook would not really help you a lot.
Half of what you need to figure out for yourself is how to play lines like that and make
them sound with the technique and fingering that fits to you.

Jens

[Petimar]

I believe the best way to learn language is transcribe tunes and solos YOURSELF and learn to play the solos you transcribe. Keep at them until you can play them pretty close to full speed. Believe me, you'll be very glad you did!!