The right way to look at scales!

[danihrabin]

The way I look at it, there are only 7 scales in music! The definition of a scale is a group of notes that doesn't have 2 consecutive half steps and no interval larger than a minor third! with definition this in mind there are only 7 scales in existence: 4diatonic major 1234567 (7modes) melodic minor 12b34567 (7modes) harmonic minor 12b345b67 (7modes) harmonic major 12345b67 (7modes) 3 symmetrical diminished 12b34b5b6bb77 (2modes) whole tone 123#4#5b7 (1mode) augmented 1#235b67 (2 modes) This definition of scales gives you every possible combination of 4 part chords with 3 available tensions and basically gives you the complete outlook that is necessary to play through any harmonic possibility.

Thanks,

Dani Rabin
marbinmusic - YouTube

[bako]

Dani,

Within your definition of a scale:

Are there any hexatonic and or pentatonic structures that is not also a subset of one of the 7?

Thanks.
Bako

[Jonzo]

And...

All scales are made from pairing tetra chords of four types.

...or am I missing something.

[henryrobinett]

Where did you find that definition of scale?

[gingataff]

sounds like what holdsworth says in just for the curious

[bako]

And...

All scales are made from pairing tetra chords of four types.

...or am I missing something.

There are 8 tetrachords

W W H

W H W

H W W

W W W

H W H

H WH H

WH H W

WH H WH

(WH=3 half steps)

Within the limits of this scale definition such structures as blues scales and bebop scales and the chromatic
are excluded.

I have gravitated somewhat towards thinking note collections rather than scale/arpeggio.
Any note collection larger than 1 note will have smaller subsets.
Any note collection smaller than 12 notes will be a subset of bigger collections.

[danihrabin]

This definition gives you a complete system to navigate through harmony. to create color you can think inside a subset (pentatonic hexatonic etc...) but this system informs you of ALL of the notes that are available (not dissonant) over any chord that you exists within functional harmony.

I don't like the tetra chord thing. weird way of looking at the same thing.

[danihrabin]

I just don't understand the advantage of looking at in the tetra chord way?... anybody?

[henryrobinett]

But you didn't say where you got this definition of scale. It's incomplete. As noted the bop scales and pentatonics, blues , or chromatic scales don't fit within this limited definition.

A scale is a graduated series of steps or degrees that comprise an enclosed musical system. That's my definition off the top of my head right now.

[danihrabin]

To me a scale is a family of notes that gives you ALL of the consonant sounds in a specific harmonic setting! so pentatonics and blues don't fit cause they lack information and chromatic and bebop scales have too much.

I'm not saying that they don't exist. I'm saying that they exist outside of the skeleton outlook that the scales provide

[henryrobinett]

Well ok, but that's not a scale. They may be something else but scales have tension tones and "wrong" notes -- avoid notes, and make up an entire harmonic system. YOU have to choose which notes work better than others. Those notes are the chord tones and extensions found within the scale. Then there are the altered tones and upper partials found outside of the scale but as part of the chord families.

[danihrabin]

Avoid notes are not wrong notes they are notes that are a half step away from a chord tone. If you use this scale system and the person comping uses it too you ensure that you will never stop on a note that's a half step away from a tension (a wrong note). You dig?

[henryrobinett]

But why have to do that if you know all the chord tones, neighbors and enclosure, and the folks you play with do too? There's a problem when you think scalar.

[danihrabin]

its two different schools of thought that lead to two different styles of playing

people that think scalularly: metheny, holdsworth, scofield, mclaughlin, rosenwinkel

people that think is chord structure: montgomery, benson, green, etc...

The scale thing is a systematic approach that can be studied and understood. the chord thing gets your fingers in the area and lets you ear lead you the rest of the way

[henryrobinett]

Yeah well not exactly. I do both approaches. And I fit squarely in between those two camps in defined. In either case, unless you ONLY modally, I find its very useful to know where all the notes are. It's like Herbie, or Trane or Jarrett, Chick, Brecker, -- they all could play both ways. Give 'em a good bop tune and they'll swing it and do the enclosures,and substitute and outline the 3rds, 7ths, 9, +11 etc. or then just Trane out on some expansive modal playing, stacking modes on top of modes and not have a care about tertiary harmony.

I just find its good to be able to do both. That's fine if you have a different approach. That's great. But I know where all things things are laid out. To me scales are enclosed systems of notes where each tone has weight and significance related to each other note, or related to the tonic or dominant. And related to that other scales/modes have weight with and against the tonic too. You know, all that Trane type stuff.

Interesting theory but its not usable for me. I consider chromatic, pentatonic, Coltrane pentatonic, bebop, blues, also as scales.

[ronjazz]

What's with the Jazz Totalitarians?

[AlanGM]

There is no "right" way to look at scales. There are wrong ways to look at scales. It depends on how you want to sound while improvising. I know the sound I want and therefore I decided to look at scales differently. I don't even think about scales so much. I know how I want to sound from point A to point B, I know what scale I wan't to use and all that but it is not that important...

[targuit]

Twelve tones in the Western scales. I use 'em all. This scalar business just gets in the way. As Gary Burton noted during his introductory class to improvisation, talking about modes, paraphrasing "I already knew these scales before I studied them formally". Translation - if you can name the scales, congratulations. That and a quarter still won't help you play...it's the ears. My favorite scales - major and minor diatonic in all keys. For a taste of the exotic - diminished and whole tone scales. Still won't write you an enduring standard.

Jay

[henryrobinett]

i
The scale thing is a systematic approach that can be studied and understood. the chord thing gets your fingers in the area and lets you ear lead you the rest of the way

Well this isn't even close to being right. First it makes the supposition that the "chord thing" isn't a systematic approach that can be studied and understood. Second and most importantly, I don't know anyone who strictly approaches the "chord thing" by not playing scales. Chords/arpeggios are derived from scales. The idea that if you do the "chord thing" you're floundering by your ear, lost in a sea beyond the triad or 7th chord is absurd. Chords are a substrate of scales. To not know, use or apply them is to not really understand the scales themselves.

[jckoto3]

Hey Henry, I'm thinking the assertion in the title of this thread is really just a surreptitious means of self-promotion by Mr. Marbin. At this rate, I think you're on course to be their #2 fan, after Mr. Kurt Rosenwinkel, of course

I keed, I keed, it's all good, scales and chords, both great for the electric fish.

edit: ugh, on second thought, I think that homonym joke floundered and fell a little flat. Sorry y'all

[danihrabin]

LOL! I actually believe in this scale thing

[jckoto3]

No doubt that your system of scalar thinking is working out well for you -- your playing is really a thing to behold. My comment was really more of a good natured ribbing given your talents for the guitar and your undeniable knack for self-promotion a-la the spirit of the Kurt Rosenwinkel thread(s).

[danihrabin]

Me and kurt are pretty much besties!

[henryrobinett]

LOL! I actually believe in this scale thing

Clearly, and thats fine. But I wish you had titled this thread, the way I look at Scales, or an approach to looking at scales, rather than THE RIGHT WAY TO LOOK AT SCALES. It's an approach that works for you but wouldn't work for me. That's great.

Far be it for me to criticize self promotion. Keep it up. But there's more than one way to skin a cat.

[danihrabin]

Henry, you are right but put the cat down! it's not worth it bro