The right way to look at scales!

[pingu]

Avoid notes are not wrong notes they are notes that are a half step away from a chord tone. If you use this scale system and the person comping uses it too you ensure that you will never stop on a note that's a half step away from a tension (a wrong note). You dig?

Dig .... to stop on a note that's a half step away
from a tension would be what ? bad or something ?

presumably it would be a non-tension note you stopped on then

do you dig Django much ?

[danihrabin]

Stop where you want!

LOVE DJANGO!

[RyanM]

Dani is correct in his original post, those are the scales.

Debating the semantics of "scale" and mathematically dividing the octave in every possible way is pointless and a waste of time, and has no practical value.

Those 4 7-note scales contain every combination of the different types of 2nds, 3rds, 4ths, etc. without consecutive half-steps. The three symmetrical scales are also the only three possible.

These scales will cover all typical chord qualities. And I think that's the point of this type of application: looking at scales as the linear arrangement of a fully extended harmony.

The only one missing is the so-called "double harmonic" scale and it's modes (the "Miserlou" scale, also known hungarian, gypsy, etc.) The common mode being: root, b2, 3, 4, 5, b6, major 7th.

The double harmonic isn't as tidy as the others, because it contains two consecutive half-steps (and the 7th mode contains a diminished third- no minor or major third). But it exhausts the possibilities.

Rosenwinkel has spoken about these 8 scales; that's probably where OP got the idea.

Of course there's also the chromatic scale, but that's assumed. And the two pentatonic scales (major/minor and minor 6th/dominant 7th - the only two possible without consecutive half-steps). But the pentatonics are just derived from the full seven note scales by leaving out the half-steps. There's also the blues scale, but that's not really a scale-- "blue notes" as a melodic concept can be applied to any scale or harmony.


For more on this way of looking at scales, see The Tonal Centre - Tonality


But I don't get the point of this thread... this is basically the scale syllabus for Berklee or other jazz schools.

[fritz jones]

"mathematically dividing the octave in every possible way is pointless and a waste of time, and has no practical value."





What about bebop scales then, are they not practical?

[RyanM]

Bebop scales are not "mathematically dividing the octave". It's an adding a passing note to one of the listed scales.

And besides, bebop scales are not really "scales" in the sense being used in this thread (or in the sense used in modal jazz, for example). David Baker called them scales, but he probably shouldn't have, because it leads to confusion about his method. It's more of a training tool for playing long, flowing bebop lines... I've written about Baker's methods elsewhere on this forum.

[danihrabin]

Mr Fritz, I am officially interested in hearing your music! got links?

[bako]

Barry Harris on the other hand generates 8 note scales from a harmonic point of view.

1 2 3 4 5 #5 6 7 8

1 2 b3 4 5 #5 6 7 8

1 2 3 4 5 #5 6 b7 8

1 2 3 4 b5 #5 6 b7 8

(and perhaps some others as well)

They are conceived as chord pairs, a chord with an intervening diminished chord.

The diminished scale is the same structurally, a diminished chord with an intervening diminished.

Another viewpoint on the same material is that these are hybrid scales.

The 1st one for example (in C) contains all the notes of C major/C harmonic major/A harmonic minor.
You could also think of it harmonically as a one stop shop entity.

[fritz jones]

I used a website with a choose function calculator to generate the list of permutations of 7 notes within an octave, out of curiosity to see how many there were.

me playing with backing tracks:

[Jonzo]

I find this interesting. So, if we can just accept Danni's definition of scales, and get over the haughty title, I would like to know more about how thinking about scales this way is useful.

Assume I'm an idiot, and explain.

[princeplanet]

Once again the poor old Natural Minor is over looked. Can you really just dismiss it as merely a mode? Surely there are points in the history of western harmony where it's used as a legitimate scale in it's own right, regardless of it's resemblance to it's relative major. Harmonic uses of this scale throughout history, as distinct from the relative Major, surely bears this out. Or are we talking about Jazz scales?

What about non western scales?

[henryrobinett]

Ah! I don't know. I always ignore the natural minor except as relative minor. To me it's a bastard, redheaded step child scale. I like my minor scales to have a V dominant. The relative minor is useless to me. But you know, in the long run I could easily be missing something.

[princeplanet]

Ah! I don't know. I always ignore the natural minor except as relative minor. To me it's a bastard, redheaded step child scale. I like my minor scales to have a V dominant. The relative minor is useless to me. But you know, in the long run I could easily be missing something.

You got a problem with redheads?

Natural Minor can be beautiful, even in Jazz.... Right now I'm even digging playing maj 2 - 5 lines over relative min 2 -5 's. Lack of raised 3rd in some lines (ok, not all), can sound great, not because you hear it as #9, but because it's idiomatic usage has some kinda implied inner logic when forced across the V7b9. Sorta like how you can force blues notes across just about anything.

But aside from my personal weirdness, I'm pretty sure most Jazz usage of this scale is of a modal nature I suppose..... any jazz tunes out there that have i iv v cadences?

[bako]

Saga of Harrison Crabfeathers is a song that I think of aeolian but it is based on
Im7 bVIma7#11 and IVm7 in 3 keys.

[princeplanet]

Pardon my ignorance, but who did that?

[bako]

Steve Kuhn wrote it.

[princeplanet]

ok, cool. There must be something with min v , it's every where it rock / pop (eg santana). Any Bossas ?

[Spirit59]

...But the pentatonics are just derived from the full seven note scales by leaving out the half-steps. There's also the blues scale, but that's not really a scale-- "blue notes" as a melodic concept can be applied to any scale or harmony...

I should have paid more attention but IIRC there have been many cultures throughout history that have utilized pentatonic scales independently of any notion / awareness of the western 7 notes to the octave thing, so thinking in terms of pentatonics just being a subset of the diatonic scale, while seemingly obvious at first thought, most likely isn't always the case...

[bobby d]

I should have paid more attention but IIRC there have been many cultures throughout history that have utilized pentatonic scales independently of any notion / awareness of the western 7 notes to the octave thing, so thinking in terms of pentatonics just being a subset of the diatonic scale, while seemingly obvious at first thought, most likely isn't always the case...

yeah, without Pentatonic scales there would be no Rock and Roll. Sticking with just 5 notes creates a different sound. If we don't limit ourselves to a strict definition of a scale there are many more musical possibilities.