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As john mclaughlin said the fretboard is a jungle we go hacking away at. I was wondering what a way of practicing on an advanced level of just going thru all kinds of possibilities of the fretboard. Something that is hard as hell. But the benefit is worth the hard work. One of those thing when you have it down you know you have a solid grip on it.
P.s. not talking about naming individual notes, but seeing chord shapes arpeggios, and applying it in real time.
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06-07-2013 02:14 AM
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Ear training. My take on it is yes, it's a huge complex jungle, and there's much good advice that can be given. I'm inclined to think that training the ear is one thing that can make this a little clearer.
You will need to hear relationships of intervals, and really know them. This is what will call the shots on the micro and the macro when you are playing in real time. In my experience, this is the most overlooked aspect because it's easier to imagine that memorizing patterns in your fingers will facilitate knowing the physical fingerboard. True to a certain extent, but it's also easier for a teacher to give you details, much harder to teach you to see the forest, and to be aware of it.
Try getting to know individual intervals. One thing I might suggest is to create a physical map of the fingerboard in two octaves, and mark all the notes of a certain pitch: It might be all the C's or just the F#'s... it doesn't matter because you're not going to make fret numbers, just the pattern of recurring and same notes in different places.
One interval at a time, maybe one a day if your ear assimilation can handle it. Be melodic, that means practice these with rhythms, as music. Use your interval a day over a piece. Combine it with intervals from previous days. Hey, 7 notes to a scale, one a day, the world was made in that amount of time.
I think this is a good way to build your ear chops and your finger/interval proximity chops. This will at least give you a really solid foundation.
The next step after you have the diatonic scale down would be to familairize yourself with the tonics from each degree of the scale, or a modal approach. This is where some people will say "modes are not real jazz"; get to know them by their intervals.
There will be other scales, Melodic Minor, Harmonic minor, whole tone... etc. All these will make a LOT of sense when you have the root template down and the knowledge and sound of the previous assimilation behind you.
Thinking this way does not preclude running a pattern at 500 bps, and by all means do that if you need to, but it will address the issue of "How does all this help me make music?"
Just one very humble suggestion. Really, ignore this if it doesn't resonate with you. Life is too short to live by somebody else's perception.
Hey, do you have Mick Goodrick's The Advancing Guitarist? I kinda like the guy, his music and perception of how it goes together. This is one book not like any other. It's worth a look anyway; he seems to know his way around the jungle.
David
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I was going to recommend Goodrick's book too. I have been doing a variation of his single string exercises, and find them very effective.
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I think that an appropriate method varies greatly depending on where you're at right now. It's rare that I've practiced fretboard exercises; instead when I am working on a new improvisational concept I do work to make sure I am fluent with that specific concept in all relevant crevices of the neck.
Originally Posted by jacofish1
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I have always broken my guitar skills and performance skills into different sections of development.
With fretboard awareness... I think, see and hear the fretboard as one large grid pattern....
That grid is a large fingering pattern, 12 frets with repeats.
When I see or hear Gmaj, The fretboard become one large pattern, G Ionian. That's my starting point, my first reference.
I base that grid and my fingerings of that G Ionian reference on two octave scale patterns and fingering built from 6th string up to 1st on scale degrees starting on G on 6th string 3rd fret and up the neck by scale degrees to 15th fret G on 6th string, the repeat of my starting point up an octave. I use 7 patterns with 7 fingerings.
These are my starting reference and other fingerings or note patterns like arpeggios or chordal patterns are relationships created from that starting reference.
If that G maj. Ionian becomes Lydian or any other harmonic reference... I drop a new grid on the fretboard.
If G Ionian is still my reference... and the new grid pattern, say G Lydian is being used in relationship to that starting grid pattern, G Ionian, I keep them both applied. I can easily see and hear the two patterns and their relationships... in this case, the natural 4th or 11th as compared to the #4th or #11th.
I can drop as many grid patterns on my fretboard as I choose or the music implies.
This is a mechanical process... it's how I realize what I hear and understand.
I also understand the theory and harmony behind music... which helps me use the grid patterns as compared to them using me. But that's a different aspect of skill development as well as performance practice.
It takes a while... but eventually you develop grid patterns and fingerings that represent all harmonic and melodic possibilities. The grids become internalized and you just play what you choose...
This is not a harmonic or improvisational method of understanding music etc... just a method of being able to play what you hear or choose to play on the guitar. You playing the guitar as compared to you playing what you've memorized on the guitar.
Reg
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Learn a few scale patterns and transpose them over the entire fingerboard...major and minor to start...just play them...
Over time my students learn 16 positions on the fingerboard of each major and minor key...
Most progressions can be played in one position....as some of us may know...but all of us will know in time...
Close your eyes and just listen to what you are playing...hear how the notes change when you move your fingers but not looking at your fingers...
Then do arpeggios of the chords in the scale...C...Dm...Em..F..G..etc...in one position at a time...
It takes time...if you can't find the time you have to make time...
Learning to play jazz is like driving at night...you can only see as far as the headlights shine but you make the trip just the same...
Time on the instrument..
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Good suggestions. I agree that one's approach to mastering the fingerboard depends on where you are in your development. A good teacher could probably help you along considerably.
As for the simplest advice, my two cents.
A copy of Segovia's Diatonic Major and Minor Scales. Practice these scales in every key, which will improve your dexterity and strength, as well as help you associate a note of the scale with various positions on the fret board. Once you are comfortable playing scales slowly and accurately, begin harmonizing each note of the scale, essentially on the string above and below the string on which you are playing that note. You will begin to hear chord fragments in that position. As you harmonize the note in question, determine what chord fragment you are playing. For example, if the note in question is the fifth fret of the D (4th) string, the note is a G. If you harmonize with a note on the fifth fret of the G (3rd) string above and the seventh fret of the A (5th) string below, you have the chord fragment e-g-c which could be part of a C major or an Amin7 chord. Ultimately, as you harmonize the notes of the scales in the various fret postions on the fret board, you will incorporate the study of chords from a comprehensive book that will help you navigate the fret board and learn chord construction and voice leading.
I note that no has spoken about getting a modern classical guitar method book such those by Christopher Parkening. That is certainly worth considering, too.
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His chart listing the C major relative vs. parallel is something to live by. If you understand the concept and apply it to the guitar (in all keys) you will go a long way towards mastering the fretboard. Practicing it without the guitar sure helps a lot too. Originally Posted by TruthHertz
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Im currently working on giant steps. one of the reasons im doing it is for fretboard freedom kind of a thing. Its just a matter of me not being able to improvise all that well. Because I cant keep up with the changes .... because im have to think to much.
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Howard Roberts used to use this quote all the time.... to learn a lot of info fast, learn a little slowly usually he was taking a topic and showing how to break down into small pieces to learn.
I would say for what your talking about is part fretboard knowledge, but part is also getting like horn players who just know the spellings of scales, arp's, and etc. What helped me get a better grip on thing was start practicing things on two strings only. When you are using like 3rd and 4th strings only you really need to know the FB notes, the scales, arp's, also interval shapes on FB, and then voice leading is simpler you see things overlapping. After you feel you have a good grip on those two strings do a different set of two like 1st and 2nd. It should come faster and after that trying playing with no limitation and you won't believe all the options you see on the FB.
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I do like that idea as i have done a little bit on a similar concept with wayne krantz's ideology and it seems to give a very different view. Originally Posted by docbop
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If you are already working with WK concepts, not sure you would need to look much further, since his stuff is all about seeing and making things happen in real time. Originally Posted by jacofish1
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Like Reg, I also use 7 Major patterns with 7 fingerings, within these fingering are the arpeggios, intervals and chord notes. By altering one note in the patterns, these fingerings can be changed to be 7 Melodic Minor fingerings or 7 Harmonic Major fingerings, whatever you need. Originally Posted by Reg
Once you know the 7 fingerings inside out, practice improv over whole songs within any 5 to 6 fret area.
Guy
P.S
It helps if you learn the fretboard as a teenager.
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Sorry McLaughlin but the fretboard is not a jungle,not for those that can see. For those peole it's clear as day. They see it as a map with x and y coordinance or as a grid that shows a picture that is always consistant, it doesn't change..
For example, when you were a kid you would walk to a friends house. After one time of walking it you knew it. And you could always find it. The difficulty became zero. Whether you knew it or not you treated the learning much like reading a map. And you use signposts and.markers to make it a cakewalk.
The guitar and harmonic layout is no different.
It is NOT a jungle.
But you have to understanding that. If it was ajungle McLaughlin would also get lost, but he doesn't so why? What does that tell you?
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The idea is to keep it simple. Something like Wayne Krantz concept in his book OS is far from simple, it is an advanced idea of playing everything within a four fret span. A simple thing like playing 12 chromatic tones in an ascending fashion is not possible.Krantz suggests finding all twelve note names requires the advanced concept of using octave displacement.. That means jumping around in different registers. Not easy for someone seeking simplicity. It's advanced. Krantz gives us a window into his mind, and that is far from easy.
It's not the simple path. And OS is a facinating study, for those that already have a good grip on the basic straight path.
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Ya but keeping it simple doesnt give the best results. You need to push yourself to gain results not just keep it simple.
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Originally Posted by jacofish1
I would say looking from different perspectives and application helps a lot. Like the restriction I spoke of earlier is just one different view, so multiple scale fingering patterns help with interval fingering. Then beside improv, sightreading helps a lot in gaining that 2nd sense of where you are on the FB, all the different things you do collectively build up the knowledge. Bottom line is to experiment and find what works for you, everyone sees and understands differently.
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Sorry for the missing or double of the letter "o", my phone sucks =/
I know what I mean and how I keep it simple, as a way to demystify the neck. You seem to understand that this will not give best results. But yu don't explain, that sounds like a blind punch aimed at nowhere. I can explain my madness and back it up. Can you? Remember we're talking about mastering the fretboard, a two dimensional grid, and my suggestion is to discover the simplicity as the first step. THEN build on that anoother session or hundred.
I'm saying understanding the layout of a basic major triad is the more effient way to eventually understanding sme advanced concept such as an A713b9 all over the neck, that is down the road frm the simple.
Read Regs post, him and I are are similar. Understanding the concept
of derivative vs parallel talked about in The Advancing Guitarist is a short step beyond the simple and can preceed concepts like drp2 and dubling that are mre a harmonic study or voicing study.
A kid in first grade reads boring stories like See Skip Run till the concept is clear. Reading a book oon world history would be a mistake for the first grader.
I truly believe we we are best served if we place ourselfs in the world oof learning as always seeking the simple straight path even if we're studying the Lydian Chromatic Concept. And Mc/aughlin saying the fretbard is a jungle does not serve the student very well, it's a misnomer. It's oonly a jungle if you pile on misunderstoods. Like reading a page oon history oonly to get too the bottom realizing you daydreamed through the whole read without cmprehension.
What's the big rush to get to the advanced??
Originally Posted by jacofish1
Last edited by ASATcat; 06-08-2013 at 02:13 PM.
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I feel ya on that one. Originally Posted by docbop
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So what is simple? Whatever floats your boat? Ok.
For me and my teaching studies like learning the location of just the C note oon all six strings
-8
----1
-------5
----------10
---------------3
-------------------8
That is a complete study, now build on that by learning the C major scale up and down just one string, understand the structure of
W W 1/2 W W W 1/2. Study #2 done.
Study #3 may involve combining #1 and #2 together so you now can locate the C root and play scale up and down one stringin reatiom to that root, just as Mick Goodrick explains in the very beginning of The Advancing Guitarist.
That's a sample of keeping it simple.
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ok Originally Posted by ASATcat
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Ok, do you feel this basic understanding could make the next steps easier? Originally Posted by jacofish1
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There are as many angles to mastering the fretbooard as there are minds full of interest tackling it.
What I brought up is not the way I learned it. The way I learned it was through a long relatinship with the guitar. Ithink taking a big band class back in '84 and an article in Guitar Player the same year n the CAGED chords by Joe Pass and all these great books like the REH series.
There was no single magic bullet.
But I will stand by my feelings of what Maclaughlin said it is only a jungle for those that don't know how to use a machette. I know plenty of people stuck in the jungle and it need not be that way.
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As a beginner "jungle" is a good description.
One question I have is does the fretboard ever become piano like?
Recently I was practicing playing 1-3-5-7 intervals over a II-V-I progression like Dm G7 CM7
At first it was very difficult but after a while I got the hang of it.
We have a piano in the house that my daughter used to play.
I did the same thing on the piano and it was so much easier.
Also having white and black keys helps alot and everything being in one linear row helps.
On guitar, one string can be a linear row and that is easy for me to grasp, but then combining all six strings becomes problematic. My teacher keeps telling me and I believe him more each day that it is all muscle memory.
On a piano I am sure it is the same but at my level I like to look at the fretboard in a visual way and see the notes and intervals but I don't think that is going to get me very far.
So for those that have developed advanced muscle memory, can the fretboard be like a piano?
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Originally Posted by jnbrown
Yes it does become piano-like. That's the ultimate end-goal, not everyone gets there of course (most guitarists spend 30 years playing pentatonic box shapes). I don't think it's about muscle memory so much as it's about developing a vidid, clear visualization in your inner minds eye. Being able to see the notes and interval relationships on the fretboard is not really about the physical fretboard or the technical aspects.
For that reason I used to (and still) practice running scales, arpeggios, & voicings, lines in my head when I have time to kill, such as on the subway, etc. It requires intense concentration, it's almost like a form of meditation, to hold the whole fretboard in your mind; as you put the time in the fretboard gradually gets larger in your mind until you can see it as just one big position.
People forget that the guitar (or any string instrument) is two dimensional: vertical (position) and horizontal (single string). To truly master it means paying equal attention to both dimensions. Mick Goodrick's book The Advancing Guitarist has more on this approach. Many guitarists go from positions to diagonal scale patterns, but I think that's missing it out. That kind of thing still locks you into patterns, and leaves dark areas on the fretboard that aren't covered. If you think about it, every thing you play is just some combination of position and single-string playing. Position shifts, slides, etc. are all just single-string moves. So the idea is that if you master both directions, you'll be free to move around wherever. Regarding positions, some like 5 (CAGED), some like 6, 7, or Leavitt's 12 position system. I've grown to like Leavitt's system, even though it doesn't seem practical, it's the only true position system, in that is covers strict positions without any shifting, and covers all possible options. The thing I like about it though is that it helps blur the lines between adjacent positions of the other systems, to fill in the gaps and help you get to the point of seeing it as just one big position.
Do this: pick one note, e.g. C. Make it your goal to just learn that one note in every location on the fretboard. Run through it every day until you can almost physically see it. When you have that one, do the same thing with the others: there's only 11 other notes to learn. Regarding running arpeggios, the "connecting game" as described in Joe Elliot's Improv book is very, very good (which may be what you are already doing). In each position, across each string, string pairs, and then freely around the fretboard, etc. Pick one key and learn not just the positions but how to learn spell out the scale and all of the chords.Last edited by RyanM; 06-20-2013 at 06:31 PM.
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