Tritone substitution vs 7b9b13

**princeplanet** · 05-09-2013, 09:08 AM

7b9b13: 5th Mode Harmonic Minor

With this scale, a lot of players like to add the nat 7th (to "bebop' the scale?). In that case every second note spells out the tritone sub of G7 (Db7). Even without the extra note, you still have the triad (Db F Ab), so it's obviously a useable choice against the G7.

Is this chord and pitch collection commonly viewed as an alternative, or even a substitute for the more usual Dominant choices (against G7)?

**Reg** · 05-09-2013, 09:40 AM

I don't use... unless I add the #9... D#. When you play the triad... from HM what are you implying. what do you hear as the rest of note collection. Besides mechanically spelling. No right or wrong, just curious.

**princeplanet** · 05-09-2013, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Reg

I don't use... unless I add the #9... D#. When you play the triad... from HM what are you implying. what do you hear as the rest of note collection. Besides mechanically spelling. No right or wrong, just curious.

Not sure what you mean, but for me playing the Db F Ab triad amongst that pitch collection infers a strong resolution to C7 (Db chord being TT of G). Isolated it sounds kinda exotic, Arabian, or Spanish (Moorish?). I've avoided modes of HM in my Jazz improvs because I always felt it to be too exotic, but have always known that many great players have had a knack for making it sound like Jazz.
Just trying to think how I could exploit this scale, apart from the obvious C7b9b13. Why wouldn't you use it (with the added B) against G7 as a sub of the TT sub (Db7)?

**princeplanet** · 05-09-2013, 02:08 PM

To try to be less confusing, the 5th mode of F Harmonic as outlined in the first post is used against C7b9b13, The passing note "b" is optional.

But to use the same pitch collection against G7 (or it's TT sub Db7) you get:

G Ab Bb (B) C Db E F __ G mixo b9 , #9, b5

Db E F G Ab Bb (B) C __ Db mixo #9, #11

I like it because of the unusual leap of a min 3rd after a run of 4 semitones. Any other suggested uses for this pitch collection? Maybe there's a table of uses for the Modes of Harmonic Minor somewhere?

**Reg** · 05-09-2013, 05:58 PM

Hey PP... are we talking about a context of basically C7b9b13 going to F-, with starting reference of F harmonic Min

Then adding "B"... which your calling a passing note, what is the reference for the passing note "B", I hear as passing chord. So the note is either a melodic embellishment or implies different harmonic context... a passing chord, approach or sub...

Then approaching that C7b9b13 with G7 or TT sub... Dd7 and using the passing note "B" from target C7b9b13 added to G7, or D7 and that passing note becoming a chord tone of G7 or Db7.

The G7 now having b9, #9, b5 and nat. 11 and 13.
The D7 now having #9, #11, nat. 5 and 13 and both flat and nat, 7th.

I still hear the G7 as G-7b5 and Db7 still as DbMaj.

Would dig hearing how you would imply when playing. Can easily hear with modal interchange and more standard choices of interchange. But sounds interesting and fun.

Interesting organizational approach to developing harmonic motion or sources for creating harmonic motion.

Just as you like the unusual leaps... I don't... maybe one time for folkish effects.

I pretty much haven't used Harmonic Min references for at least 30 years... so I'm probably out of touch as far as ears.
Would dig hearing.

**princeplanet** · 05-10-2013, 12:22 AM

Reg,

It's fun, but not sure I can make it sound like Jazz... although to play it against G7 starting from Ab :

Ab Bb (B) C Db E F G __ G mixo b9 , #9, b5

lands the B note on a strong beat which infers Dom quality better rather than the m7b5 vibe you're picking up on.

But taking a typical line that works against C7 like:

: G, Ab, G, F, E, Db, C, Bb (usually resolving to A or Ab on Fmaj or min)

but using it instead for G7b9(nat)13 and resolving to b as part of Cmaj7

sounds ok to my ears...

Anyway, Im pretty sure I'm over thinking this. After all, it's just an Altered scale with one alteration. Just because that alteration is derived from one of the HM modes, doesn't necessarily imbue it with any significance, right? I mean, I could just as easily have altered (or unaltered) any other pitch and try to make that fly I suppose...

Interesting that you don't care much for HM modes, do you know of any players that seem to use them well?

**Reg** · 05-10-2013, 10:18 AM

Hey PP... sure, at any point in time, one note may mean nothing. Or it could have or be an important reference or relationship. But I was just running with your method of organization or source for creating relationships.
Harmonic min. has fairly standard references, at least to me personally.

Big difference for me... C7 going to F as compared to G7 going to Cma.

Having the nat. g on C7 going to F ma or mi... is pretty strong reference. Maj/min functional harmony.

Same line over G7b9 13 to Cma... sounds like modal interchange... C har. Maj.

The line is hard for me to hear altered... at least with reference to MM or blue note influenced harmony.

I'll try and listen for some Hmin modal playing... or you could steer me to some.

When I play lines or embellish... I try and.... i do have harmonic references. Can't help it, that's the way I hear, play, compose etc...

Reg

**edh** · 05-11-2013, 10:16 PM

Big questin here. Is it at all necessary to get into so much detail as you are all doing?

Can't you just play and let your ears be the guide?

Do all of you really go through this when you are playing.

Doesn't seem like you would have enough time to do all this analyzing.

**princeplanet** · 05-12-2013, 01:49 AM

Maybe, but it's fun to discover quirky things you like, and then try to understand 1) where these things come from and 2) how to exploit them. There's no way around having to do a lot of thinking to be the best Jazz player you can be. Sure, we all have to be thinking about the right things to get our heads around commonly expected things, but there's room for the uncommon, in order to give each of us our point of difference. If you don't have a point of difference, then I'm probably not that interested in hearing you, and vice versa I'm sure.

But all this thinking goes on off the bandstand. When you're improvising your own day to day conversations, you don't think about syntax, grammar, vocabulary etc. It just comes out. Now, depending on how much preparation has been done with your repartee, you can turn out to be just-another-jock, or you could be Noel Coward. Ha! Maybe a lousy analogy, not sure I wanna be the Noel Coward of Jazz guitar

but you get my meaning...

**3625** · 05-12-2013, 02:47 AM

Hey PP, since you mentioned syntax - to me when playing those notes to outline an altered dom sound, I notice I avoid phrases which ascend from the b9 to the maj3rd: like C>Db>E cause to my ear, that's kinda exotic or moorish sounding. So it's not wrong, but sounds out of place with the sound I'm going for - which is my own take on what 'bop' vocab is. So yeah, letting your ears guide you in the practice room and developing your own syntax out of that.

With mostly what I play, I don't use altered doms as a device to explicitly say 'here is the real outside bit' but instead I try to weave them in with the standard notes and work on an approach based on continuity of sound - over standards with lots of ii V's. So I'll avoid something like that exotic sound because it doesn't fit with the rest of it - whereas over a static vamp for example, totally different...

**princeplanet** · 05-12-2013, 03:11 AM

Here's one way to conceive the HM modes, using C major as a reference:

1) Aeolian #7.......- A B C D E F G# - AmMaj7(b6)
2) Locrian #6.......- B C D E F G# A - Bm7b5/Bdim7
3) Ionian #5........- C D E F G# A B - Cmaj7#5
4) Dorian #4........- D E F G# A B C - Dm7(#11)
5) Phrygian #3.....- E F G# A B C D - E7(b9,b13)
6) Lydian #2........- F G# A B C D E - Fmaj7(#9)
7) Mixolydian #1. - G# A B C D E F - G#dim7

No doubt some of you will take issue with the nomenclature (eg. Phrygian #3 ??).

Throw in the D# passing note that you'd typically add to the "Phrygian #3" and you have the modes of Phrygian #3 "Bebop"

1) - A B C D D# E F G# -
2) - B C D D# E F G# A -
3) - C D D# E F G# A B -
4) - D D# E F G# A B C -
5) - D# E F G# A B C D -
6) - E F G# A B C D D# -
7) - F G# A B C D D# E -
8) - G# A B C D D# E F -

Note that modes #1, 3, 5, 7 are the same in that the notes 1,3,5,7 spell out F7

Note that modes #2, 4, 6, 8 are the same in that the notes 1,3,5,7 spell out E7

Now you can "Barry Harris" your inversions of both E7 and F7 to connect the chords. Try a run of Drop 2 chords where you start with an inversion of say, an E7 and play the nearest F7, then the nearest E7, F7 etc..

You quickly get a feel for E7 as the "home" chord and F7 as the unstable chord (TT sub?) requiring resolution. Like in the traditional Spanish folk music kinda way. But given there are essentially only 2 modes going on with the whole matrix, by simply playing the mode on an E7 or F7 chord tone gives you the right sound for the chord.

This is an intriguing discovery for me, and as it can't be anything new, I'd like to know if has been exploited in a Jazz way already. There must be a Duke Ellington tune somewhere......

**Reg** · 05-12-2013, 10:20 AM

hey edh... you or we can always play what ever we choose. But personally... ears are not always great sounding, or many times they can miss much of what's going on.

How do ears work? My ears work because I can hear in reference to something. My ears recognize and make reference to what I hear... pre conceived organization.

The thinking aspect... for me personally... an analysis takes seconds for most tunes. If I know the tune etc... I already have lots of pre-determined analysis to draw from. If it's a new chart... maybe 15 sec...

The difference might be ... when I look at a chart, I am using my ears, I hear the notation. And I use that hearing with thinking to create quick analysis. When I hear changes, I hear them as roman numerals...

Example...
I IV / VII III / VI II / V I / IV 1st two bars of a blues...

Bbma7 Ebma9 / A-7b5 D7#9 / G-9 C13 / F-9 Bb7alt / Eb9 ...

Hey PP... I always like the Maj reference. Very standard for jazz. The spelling is secondary.

The chord construction game is cool... I still hear the F as a maj or sub of B-7b5 chord with your context and reference.

When you use TT sub... is it related to the inversion of the tritone or root motion.
I also hear that IV III relationship... modal organizational reference. Nothing to do with tritone.

I like the approach and would really dig hearing how you would apply to playing. If one can hear the organization become functional... or is it a camouflage of existing functional system.

Thanks Reg

**princeplanet** · 05-12-2013, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by Reg

I still hear the F as a maj or sub of B-7b5 chord with your context and reference.

When you use TT sub... is it related to the inversion of the tritone or root motion.

I also hear that IV III relationship... modal organizational reference. Nothing to do with tritone.

Reg, would you mind explaining in "dumbed down" terms exactly what you mean by these 3 statements?

Oh, and you keep asking for me to record examples to show my usage. Truth is, I'm struggling with this stuff and I'm not comfortable with embarrassing myself in public!

It's embarrassing enough that I keep asking these half assed questions......

**fumblefingers** · 05-12-2013, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by edh

Big questin here. Is it at all necessary to get into so much detail as you are all doing?

Can't you just play and let your ears be the guide?

Do all of you really go through this when you are playing.

Doesn't seem like you would have enough time to do all this analyzing.

edh - this discussion is over my head a little, but i think that the point would be:

you improvise based upon what you're capable of,
you're capable of what you practice, for the most part,
organizing your practice is therefore very important,
your practice should prioritize things that serve you well, and deproritize (is that a word?) things that don't,
and finally, such a prioritization is informed by analysis

**princeplanet** · 05-12-2013, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

edh - this discussion is over my head a little, but i think that the point would be:

you improvise based upon what you're capable of,
you're capable of what you practice, for the most part,
organizing your practice is therefore very important,
your practice should prioritize things that serve you well, and deproritize (is that a word?) things that don't,
and finally, such a prioritization is informed by analysis

Absolutely. For example, you may have stumbled upon the idea of creating a scale by pitting together two Dom arps a semitone apart. Take E7 and F7. Together they make (you guessed it) the same scale in my above example:

E F G# A B C D D#

I'm sure you'd find pet uses for this scale purely by letting your ear dictate where it sounds good or doesn't. But you'd never investigate all it's potential uses without knowing all the ways of arriving at the same scale. Even just realising that it is (also) a mode of Harmonic minor with a passing note leads you to a whole world of potential ideas, some of which have already been mentioned in this thread.....

**Reg** · 05-12-2013, 01:27 PM

Hey PP...

Sorry...I wasn't clear... I have always read your posts and sometimes don't want to give long detailed explanations of what may be very common harmonic understanding. I tend to assume most understand harmony and theory... maybe more so than I should.

I apologize for putting you on spot for playing... not intent. When I hear someone play what their verbalizing... sometimes the concept becomes easier to grasp. Somewhat like most notate V7#5 when usually the #5 is a b13... which has very different harmonic implications.

Anyway... again sorry.

To try and explain my comments...

1) I hear the F chord more as a Fmaj7 chord, the bVI of Harmonic Min. Even when played as F7... This all with my reference being A harmonic min. The changing of notes on top of the root have lots of methods of changing and still having same function in context.

2) Tritone sub can be reference to the actual tritone being inverted, resulting in the 7th chord becoming a different 7th chord a tritone away. So tritone sub. G7 becomes Db7

Or the name may also be used as a root motion term... the root movement of a tritone... different type of function sub. example being use of triads or any constant structure chord or basically any chords using the root motion as the method of substitution.

3) the IV III relationship is the very common modal chord pattern.... IVma7 to III-7.

That is the basic reference... you then apply different applications. Change the chords on top of the root motion using whatever method of organization one chooses.

The point is that modal root motion is very established within jazz practice and can be developed and still retain the basic modal reference.

A difficult aspect of jazz theory and harmony is being able to get over the vertical aspect of maj/min functional where all note need to line up.

Reg

**princeplanet** · 05-12-2013, 02:11 PM

Reg,

It's not only the content of what you often write that confuses me, but also the style of your writing. I find I have to re read sentences several times to try to work out what you mean. As such, I'm still unclear about a coupla things. I think I get that you like to bring back basic chord functions to an elementary place, so you hear Fmaj7 even when F7 is played next to E7 because from the base of A Harmonic Minor, the F chord is a maj 7 and just changing the e to Eb in the chord doesn't change it's function within the context of A HM.

But when you say you also see these 2 chords as plain old IVmaj7 to IIImin7, that seems now to be derived from C maj. Are you saying that Fmaj (or F7) to E7 can be brought back to the way Fmaj and Emin function in C maj? Is this because of the almost modal sound they create whereby the 2 chords rock back and forth without needing to go anywhere else? If that's what you mean, then yeah, I can dig it.

The other confusing thing is where you allude to Bm7b5 being the TT sub of Fmaj7. Would love to see an example of what you mean here. I'm not familiar with these kinds of chords TT subbing for each other.

Your harmonic concepts seem way beyond a lot of us here, is there a book you'd recommend to get us up to speed?

**Reg** · 05-12-2013, 03:15 PM

Sorry about my writing style... or lack of.

but you seem to understand... How else would analysis start. Strongest references are usually most common and basic. The further you get away from those reference... the more your playing or composing generally needs to establish what your referencing.

So reference to HM as starting point... Maj/Min functional harmony... the vanilla version is fairly strong.

The reference to IVma to III- is from same book... just adding modal concepts. As I said very common and used jazz chord pattern. So cool you seem to get it.

The last point... Subing B-7b5 for F7 is just... Reference A-.... II-7b5 to V7altered or bVI7 V7altered... both going to A-

You can also think of II- or V7 and their related either II- or V7 ...

B-7b5 , E7alt , A-7
B-7b5, Bb13, A-7
F-7 , Bb13 , A-7
F7, Bb13, A-7
F7 , E7 , A-7 there are lots of paths, right.

Reg

**Reg** · 05-12-2013, 03:18 PM

Do you really want reference books?... there are least 30 or so... most of my concepts are simple applications of very common harmonic principles. I'm generally very basic.

**princeplanet** · 05-13-2013, 06:34 AM

Originally Posted by Reg

Do you really want reference books?... there are least 30 or so... most of my concepts are simple applications of very common harmonic principles. I'm generally very basic.

Then maybe just a handful of book suggestions that cover most of these "basics" ?

**Reg** · 05-13-2013, 08:57 AM

Which harmonic concepts, (basics), and what or who makes the explanation acceptable.

Do you understand Tonal and Modal concepts?
Do you understand maj/min functional harmony?
Modal Interchange... beyond "borrowing chords"
Concepts of Subs and applications of those sub concepts.

Reg

**princeplanet** · 05-13-2013, 09:25 AM

I probably understand maj/min functional harmony a little better than the other 3, but from the classical theory I did years ago.... But I'd like to know some modal interchange tricks and more about sub concepts, for sure. But just a coupla books, pretty time poor I am....

**edh** · 05-13-2013, 01:10 PM

@Reg, I think you mentioned somewhere that you teach(correct me if I'm wrong).

What books do you recommend to your students?

**princeplanet** · 05-13-2013, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by Reg

t... Subing B-7b5 for F7 is just... Reference A-.... II-7b5 to V7altered or bVI7 V7altered... both going to A-

Forgot to mention that the penny dropped. I was used to seeing Bm7b5 and F7 proceeding to E7, so obviously no problem with seeing the TT relationship there, but when you said Fmaj7, at first it didn't sound right to me. But of course, Fma7 is native to A (Harmonic) Minor, and proceeds to E7 perfectly well. Don't know why I've been so unfamiliar with VImaj7 to V7 in minor, is it because VI7 to V7 is more common?

But the main epiphany is that in this instance the lack of the common TT doesn't preclude each chord from subbing for each other. I mean if the F chord (maj or dom) had a b5 then I would have seen it as a TT sub, but without the b5, it can still "swap" for Bm7b5!

So then, this opens the door for all kinds of chord quality "swapping" (eg Fmaj, F7, F7b5 etc) which is probably the basis of some of this Modal interchange idea I see you mention often? Never studied this properly, obviously... Does the Levine book cover this ?

**Reg** · 05-13-2013, 04:14 PM

edh... I taught... at UCLA, a few JC's. I'm from old school... you need to write out most of the material yourself. Part of the learning process is figuring out what's what and putting the pieces together. Generally one needs to compose to get a handle on harmony and theory.

I'm not sure there are any really good books. Leon Dallin's Techniques of Twentieth Century Composition is a good student awareness read for classically educated musicians. Helps bridge or open some doors to jazz harmony/ theory. He passed away but taught at Cal. St. Un. Long Beach.

You almost have to go through and understand...Reimann, Rameau, Piston, Persichetti, Schoenberg, Bartock... and then becoming aware of Jazz tonal and modal practices. I would guess any of the major real jazz schools should have reference books...

I know Mark and personally like his books... we studied with some of the same teachers and composers. But his theory book is basic... more of a performance aid. But he does open many of the doors to jazz harmony/theory.

I'll think about it some more and check with some friends still teaching.

Reg