The altered scale a min 3rd up!

[princeplanet]

Did this by accident the other day, namely used G altered against E7 b9 and am still wondering why it sounds ok to me.... when we look at the pitch collection we have :

#9 M3rd b5 P5th M6th M7th b9 so 3 notes differ from the E altered scale. The P5th is worrisome enough, but the M6th and M7th should just sound plain wrong, right?

I know it depends on how you use any PC, and that any random PC might seem ok to your own ear after a while, but just wondered if this is a known substituition or not. There's plenty of talk of folks who like to take their stock Dominant ideas up a min 3rd, is this merely an extension of that idea?
Anyone use this? If not, can you please try it and let me know if you think it's cool or not? I'll continue to use it because I like it, but I'm just curious to see if others are rubbed wrong by it.....

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Maybe you like it for the same reason the guy who was hitting his head with a hammer liked it, "it feels good when I stop".

[Guitarzen]

Basically you can get away with any note over a dominant 7 chord. Really there is no rule that prohibits you from using any note anywhere...I purposely try to think and play using all 12 tones over all chords. If you do it right you can make it work. But no, that wouldn't be your best choice of a scale.

[princeplanet]

er, right, so in other words it's something you wouldn't choose to do?

[princeplanet]

Because it has the 5th, the 3rd and b9, it still fits in a weird way, just think of it as having a "flat" min7 and well as a "sharp" min7. The way that the altered scale has a flat and sharp 5th in place of the "normal" 5th, or a flat and sharp 9th in place of the "normal" 9th.

Dissonance is arbitrary in some ways, I always thought the altered scale sounded "wrong" til I got used to it....

[randalljazz]

no reason to assume altered scale as "standard" for E7b9. might as likely be 5th mode harmonic minor, inverted diminished, 3rd or 5th mode harmonic major...earlier players just changed 9 to b9 (or added it) to the scale of the key--insofar as they were playing scales at all...

so, yeah, all good notes, your scale...the MA7 perhaps not a good place to linger, except for effect...

[TH]

That's great! It's always best to "stumble" into great sounds, then find out how to use them.
Hey have you looked at the relationship between dominant sounds and the diminished symmetrical scale (minor thirds stacked on top of one another)? Well take a look at that. You'll see that that chord, the diminished 7th chord fits in an octave. Take any tone in there, any tonic, since it's symmetrical and lower it a half step. Hey, there's a root of a dominant chord. It gives you a whole family of dominant chords all of which can be used since they share the same diminished DNA.
That's one way to look at it. But I love it that it was your sense of experimentation and your ear that brought you there.
Hope this makes sense.
David

[princeplanet]

no reason to assume altered scale as "standard" for E7b9. might as likely be 5th mode harmonic minor, inverted diminished, 3rd or 5th mode harmonic major...earlier players just changed 9 to b9 (or added it) to the scale of the key--insofar as they were playing scales at all...

so, yeah, all good notes, your scale...the MA7 perhaps not a good place to linger, except for effect...

Certainly wouldn't linger on it, although they say Coltrane was never afraid of the M7th against Dom chords. Wish I knew of some examples to check out...

[Jimmy blue note]

Maybe you like it for the same reason the guy who was [...] liked it, "it feels good when I stop".

That's what she said.

[randalljazz]

Certainly wouldn't linger on it, although they say Coltrane was never afraid of the M7th against Dom chords. Wish I knew of some examples to check out...

i seem to recall encountering that in his i hear a rhapsody, available on the net somewhere.

[princeplanet]

Hey Truth Hertz, You mean Dim subbing for Dom? I think thats fairly common, and probably the reason people like subbing Dom ideas a min 3rd up. If you look at Bb7, the Bb, D F and A is just G9 with a lowered 3rd (#9?). Even scale based ideas will come out loosely related. But the MM scale up a 3rd is "twice removed" in a sense , and surprised me that the M6th and M7th against a Dom chord resolving to minor should sound a smooth as it does. In passing, obviously!

[princeplanet]

Cheers Randall , will check it out.

[randalljazz]

bruce forman is another...

[TH]

Hey Truth Hertz, You mean Dim subbing for Dom? I think thats fairly common, and probably the reason people like subbing Dom ideas a min 3rd up. If you look at Bb7, the Bb, D F and A is just G9 with a lowered 3rd (#9?). Even scale based ideas will come out loosely related. But the MM scale up a 3rd is "twice removed" in a sense , and surprised me that the M6th and M7th against a Dom chord resolving to minor should sound a smooth as it does. In passing, obviously!

I don't think of it as a part of the MM family at that point, but rather its kinship in the dominant family. That's what my ear hears, what I'm trying to convey, and the minor intervals stacked outline that dominant quality, so there is a family tie through symmetry. As to the qualities of alteration, yeah, I use notes derived from MM, or HM, or more to the point, I hear intervallic notes that play against the essential chord tones. It's helpful to me because I'm so enamoured of diads. But that's just me.
It was ages ago on an article I read by Pat Martino, or maybe it was a hotlines cassette or something that it made sense why, but before that, my ear told me there was some connection with dominants spaced a m3 apart. That's why I was pleased to see you discovering it on your own, before a teacher fed it to you.
That's the way I see it anyway. Everyone has their own toolset. Those that make or discover their own sounds and then build a toolset from it seem to find a sense of conviction through the process.
David

[GuyBoden]

Those that make or discover their own sounds and then build a toolset from it seem to find a sense of conviction through the process.
David

I agree, finding your own way is a big part of the fun of playing, personally, I've had a lot more fun when I've known the basics before I start on the journey.

Basic Melodic Minor modes to chord relationship:

Mode 1: Min/Maj
Mode 2: Sus7b9
Mode 3: Maj7#5
Mode 4: dom7#11
Mode 5: dom7b13
Mode 6: min7b5
Mode 7: Alt7

[princeplanet]

I agree, finding your own way is a big part of the fun of playing, personally, I've had a lot more fun when I've known the basics before I start on the journey.


Basic Melodic Minor modes to chord relationship:

Mode 1: Min/Maj
Mode 2: Sus7b9
Mode 3: Maj7#5
Mode 4: dom7#11
Mode 5: dom7b13
Mode 6: min7b5
Mode 7: Alt7

That's why I say G alt scale against E7 is "twice removed". There's no 'E" in Ab Melodic Minor....

[GuyBoden]

That's why I say G alt scale against E7 is "twice removed". There's no 'E" in Ab Melodic Minor....

As you know, there's seven MM modes, so theoretically you could be playing Melodic Minor Mode 6, the Locrian #2 from the b9 of 7b9.

MM6 = F Locrian #2 = F G Ab Bb Cb Db Eb

[princeplanet]

As you know, there's seven MM modes, so theoretically you could be playing Melodic Minor Mode 6, the Locrian #2 from the b9 of 7b9.

MM6 = F Locrian #2 = F G Ab Bb Cb Db Eb

Interesting way to make the connection, given that E and F are close (kinda the way Ab and G are close when deriving the MM connection for Alt)- but I think I'm comfortable with just thinking "use the Alt scale from a min 3rd up".

I'm glad I no longer think of the 7th mode of Ab MM when I'm thinking G Alt, makes it easier to apply. But trying to think of Locrian #2 from the b9 would take too much effort for my pea brain, especially when on the spot!

Thanks for the idea though.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

My take. suppose the given chord is a E7. I do the "minor 3rd increments thing" so I think of E7, G7, Bb7 and C#7 are being exchangeable to some extent:

• E7 line over E7 = vanilla
• G7 line over E7 = kinda bluesy
• Bb7 line over E7 = tritone sub sound
• C#7 line over E7 = most out of the four. Has the leading tone (D#) as mentioned.

This comment applies to E mixo, G mixo, Bb mixo and C# mixo as well as E lyd dom, G lyd dom, Bb lyd dom and C# lyd dom.

Note that the most "out" one, C# lyd dom, is the same note set as G altered, which is the original post. Hmmm...

As always, I'm not applying this mechanically. I'm listening as a go up or down a minor third.

[princeplanet]

My take. suppose the given chord is a E7. I do the "minor 3rd increments thing" so I think of E7, G7, Bb7 and C#7 are being exchangeable to some extent:

• E7 line over E7 = vanilla
• G7 line over E7 = kinda bluesy
• Bb7 line over E7 = tritone sub sound
• C#7 line over E7 = most out of the four. Has the leading tone (D#) as mentioned.

This comment applies to E mixo, G mixo, Bb mixo and C# mixo as well as E lyd dom, G lyd dom, Bb lyd dom and C# lyd dom.

Note that the most "out" one, C# lyd dom, is the same note set as G altered, which is the original post. Hmmm...

As always, I'm not applying this mechanically. I'm listening as a go up or down a minor third.

But does it sound as "out" to you as you think it should? If we play a semitone clash against chord tones in a Dom 7 chord, the b9 and #9 are fine, the b5 and #5 are fine, so why can't the "flat" b7 and the "sharp" b7 be fine? Despite the conditioning, can't this be arbitrary? What would Schoenberg say? Not trying to be one of those guys that wants the world to listen to 12 tone rows (not that that's a bad thing!), I'm just challenging my long held notion that the b7 is sacred and "shalt not be raised". Not forgetting the M6th (c# against E7 resolving to Am)...

[TH]

I'm just challenging my long held notion that the b7 is sacred and "shalt not be raised"....

"Sacred" changes with the era and the teacher. You decide what works for your ear and be reflective enough to know when your inner logic tells you something works. If the change says dominant, there is an ear (and one tradition) that must pay tribute to that structure, but there are others that might see that as defining a point of convergence to another point (your target chord) so at some point in your life you might want to explore other ways to get there. And keep in mind that a note is a sound, not an obligation, and that major sound is the sound of a note approaching the sol of your target chord, or another chord tone depending on which sub you may be using.
Yes, there will be some that say the rules dictate specific notes being allowed. If your logic, rationale and conviction is strong, when you arrive at your target, you'll have made your point.
Play with people with good ears, keep your ideas evolving and you'll make good music that takes your listeners along for the ride. Some of the best rides I've been on have been well outside of the written changes and conventional recommended note choices- but phrasing, the approach of a line to a point, motivic movement, inertia from the chords preceeding are all things that might create a violation of a "sacred" note. If your line has life to it, you can just say "live with it."
David

[euterpe]

just like many others said. You can pull off all 12 notes, none of them are wrong.

Look at guys like Pat Martino who have developed their own systems of approaching harmony/note choice. Is it wrong?

If you like the way something sounds, how can it be wrong?

I often find it's the motives/rhythmic content that dictate what sounds good more so than anything

[Guitarzen]

er, right, so in other words it's something you wouldn't choose to do?

If I want to use the major 7 or p5, I can use it by choice. I don't need to tie yet another scale to dominants to give me that option. I just think it makes the whole process unnecessarily more complicated by trying to think of every random scale or mode that can give you some of the alterations we want, and some that usually don't want. You can do the same thing probably with any and all scales. Why not just focus on using the few best scales for altered dominants (i.e. alt scale, half-whole, whole tone, lydian dom) and then add in those other notes as you see fit, by choice? Instead of having to add in 20 more scales / modes of scales into the mix? See my point? I feel the same way about the idea of "bebop" scales. Why bother thinking of seperate scales when you can just think of 1 scale, and the freedom to use chromatics with that scale? So I understand you were happy to feel like you discovered something "new", but what it comes down to is these types of "discoveries" are completely negated in value, if you just learn how to use chromatic notes ;o) Your playing will benefit more from simplification, not the reverse.

[GuyBoden]

If I want to use the major 7 or p5, I can use it by choice. I don't need to tie yet another scale to dominants to give me that option. I just think it makes the whole process unnecessarily more complicated by trying to think of every random scale or mode that can give you some of the alterations we want, and some that usually don't want. You can do the same thing probably with any and all scales. Why not just focus on using the few best scales for altered dominants (i.e. alt scale, half-whole, whole tone, lydian dom) and then add in those other notes as you see fit, by choice? Instead of having to add in 20 more scales / modes of scales into the mix? See my point? I feel the same way about the idea of "bebop" scales. Why bother thinking of seperate scales when you can just think of 1 scale, and the freedom to use chromatics with that scale? So I understand you were happy to feel like you discovered something "new", but what it comes down to is these types of "discoveries" are completely negated in value, if you just learn how to use chromatic notes ;o) Your playing will benefit more from simplification, not the reverse.

Yes, I agree, a well organized system is needed.

I'm interested in using your system, so if playing from the 6th fret, how do you explain these note choices for a E7b9?
See fretboard diagram shown below:

[mja]

i've heard of Gm pentatonic up a min 3rd

F (b9) G (b3) Bb (b5) C (b6) D (b7)

also, any idea/motif you have in E altered (superlocrian) can be moved up a min 3rd