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Yeah Jeff. I think playing for yourself is when the art becomes an art, unless who you ARE is a egomaniac and have no taste or ability. Art became self aware after the renaissance, right? When a great artist is being himself and creates what he likes and values most, that's when, if it's good, it reaches others. It can only speak to masses of others, as a deep art, when it has some truth behind it. I mean bubble gum does too, but you can always cheapen and make cloy the human expression. But with jazz it has to have something there emotionally, intellectually, aesthetically. And how do you KNOW it's there unless you are doing it honestly for yourself? The highest point of commercialism is doing it for others. You will try and guess by observation what others will like, in the hope of making a lor=t of money. Strike it rich. Get that hit record. In jazz and more "high art" you are the judge and jury all by yourself.
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02-15-2013 09:45 PM
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I agree. When I play, I want to rid myself of as much mental garbage as I possibly can. If anyone walks up to the bandstand with the intent to structure their solo like this or that beforehand, it will sound contrived.
Originally Posted by henryrobinett
I had a teacher who instilled into me the principles that Richb talk about: compositional value. He demonstrated for me the different tools to achieve this: dynamics, structure, building intensity in different way etc. However, I have never actively practiced improvising in this manner. I just keep it in the back of my head and make sure to recognize it when I listen to jazz, or when I comp a soloist.
I don't object to anyone practicing like that as long as it doesn't become so automatic that every solo is built up the same way only the notes are different.
In my opinion, most of practicing takes care of the mechanics of playing. The lines or chords are in the muscle memory, but the creative mind is trained by listening. That muscle memory can be modified at will. Because a certain rhythm in a lick is learned a certain way, doesn't mean the player won't be unable to change the rhythms at will. The muscle memory is merely the note combinations, the fingering patterns. Good time is a result of good ear, although it is possible to practice in a way to develop bad time if the mechanics of playing has been developed with poor technique.
That's how I see it. I'm early in the journey at year 5 or so playing jazz guitar, so it is inspiring to me to read the posts by accomplished, gigging musician like yourself and many others on this forum.
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Well one thing that I suppose that hasn't been addressed is that you can practice structuring your solo at home so that it becomes an ingrained thing that can come out organically and effortlessly in performance. I don't see how that is difference than practicing changes, syncopations, odd meters, etc. If that stuff can become unconscious, longer term structure can be too...I've experienced that in performance, not just taking solos over jazz tunes either.
Also for whatever it's worth, back to the original topic, when I've listened to recordings of myself I tend to start with little mini-motifs, gradually get into longer lines, start referencing the melody more, and then reference the melody a little more bluntly in the end, often with some descending stuff, both in terms of pitch and dynamic. Never really thought about it, but I notice that happening a lot in my solos.
I went to a Fred Hersch clinic recently and he made the good point that if you end your solo on a really high energy point, and try to take the band with you, then it can be an awkward spot for the next person (especially if it's bass) to start his solo...kind of nicer to have an arc. I had a teacher describe it to me once as a football shape...gradually goes up, gradually goes down.
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i would invite those who think that planning a solo is somehow 'unworthy' to explore the recordings of the jazz greats of the past whose alternate takes are included in the cd re-issues. very instructive.
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Absolutely. Bird used to do it, somewhat. His Ko Ko has a phrase he repeated almost verbatim on his second chorus. Coltrane had little phrases too.
Working things out is fine. But THINKING and fumbling isn't. You must also keep in mind these were very important recording sessions where you had no ability to overdub and you had maybe one or two takes to get it. Of course you came prepared.
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This thread is developing very cool... nice dialect.
I also think Rich's point... "make some damn sense in your solo" is also very cool. The difficult aspect seems to be just what that is. What gives a solo... sense.
We all must be aware of basic compositional practice... how to develop solos, the different mechanical organizational devices used to go through that process. There are choices and we use our judgement as to which choice is best. That judgement is based on one or many influences.
When we compose we have time to weight the choices, while we're improvising... much less time. We make decisions based on instinct or choices from sometimes... very incomplete amounts of information.
The bottom line... some players are better than other. I tend to believe, sure some players have natural talent, but most don't play as well because of lack of understanding of just what their trying to do. Their not aware of the structural organizational aspects of what a solo is. I'm not talking about the subjective choices... I'm talking about the nuts and bolts.
Very basic info... like how the thread started, what is the best organization as to use of single notes and chords. Generally you don't have a "best Choice" with out having a reference.
It's great when you hear a solo and think or feel... yea that solo felt balanced, very natural and went where it should have.
So what are the approaches too being able to produce those solos. Trial and error, copy what's been done and get lucky.
The other point Rich brings up about the audience, for me is very simple. When I play Jazz Live... that's live part is part of the equation of Jazz also, as I said before, the audience is also part of the equation...
The music for music sake... true to the truth of the music... I would think if that's your belief, where does that end. In the end for the betterment of the Music or human beings. Your saving people from themselves... because you know better.
Rich your versions of compositional solos are not the only choices... your personal,(and mine) are not the only correct choices. I'm not saying their wrong... But if you going to rate or judge solos... you need to be able to verbally describe and detail the aspects of a solo.
Amundi's point about structured solos... I some what disagree... You may not begin your solo with a verbal preplanned concept... but what about the Form... the choice of notes. Are you going to ignore the rest of the band, if the solo before you took the blue line... Modal or any of the harmonic approaches... or one of the many basic theme and development approach's... are you just going to do the same. If your aware of the different approaches to soloing... you generally naturally use one. There's not much that hasn't been done before. If being different is your goal... you might want to play different music.
I also don't have a problem with egos... they can be a very good source for motivation. And personally I like playing gigs with players who believe they play well. There can always be awkward moments, but confident players also produce great music. I may not hang socially with them... but performance is a different thing. Don't get me wrong... that's not my preference... but just like using dissonance... it has it's place.
Just a disclaimer... I'm just a musician, all I'm trying to contribute is make guitar players better musicians.Last edited by Reg; 02-16-2013 at 01:50 PM.
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Yeah Reg, it's a pretty fun discussion! And I agree about egos, as I think I've said elsewhere. Big egos are a necessary requirement to feeling that you are worthy enough to be listened to and have the confidence to play with the big boys, because you believe you ARE a big boy! Unfortunately some can be assholes and hurtful and only think about themselves. But those people tend not to have the necessary character to share with musicians on stage and tend to not be a person people want to play with. So they don't gig a lot if they don't book it themselves.
BUT the problem happens with all the OTHER people who get their panties in a bunch by those more successful and better players and those who have the confidence to KNOW they're better players. Trust me, everyone who is good KNOWS how good they are. They work REALLY HARD to be that good. But they learn to be humble because they know other egos are fragile.
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Everyone works things out at some time or another. Learning solos, constructing solos. You have all that stuff you've worked on FOR YEARS in some cases. Sometimes before a solo I try to plan out an arc, or visualize where I want to go. But when the moment happens it almost always goes out the window as I'm navigating and responding to players and the music. You just have to learn how to be in the moment and not in some past or future one. Music is about now. It's a time stream of continuous nows.
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"It's a time stream of continuous nows". I dig that Henry. And I agree with basic lines of all your comments. I just dig actual physical elements of, in this discussion, soloing... not just the creative process and the descriptions of.
I'm trying to get the thinking process going for all... I don't want to lecture... here they are and this is how they work with relationship to A,B,C etc... I have questions about educational methods. I believe most don't want to be told and get more out of becoming aware through references and relationships. But that's just an opinion...
Would be nice to see some you players get involved in the Practical Standards Group thread in the jazzguitar lessons section. This month tune is "Come Rain Or Come Shine". I was involved in starting it a few years back. They vote on a new tune each month and then post examples of playing the tune in different styles... or whatever. I use to post a playing analysis of tune... harmonic analysis etc... very simple but useful for how to approach.
Anyway you could give very physical examples of what your talking about... in this case, Soloing. I'm pretty lazy lately... but I'll try and post something. It's not a showcase thing... more of a sharing of skills.
Reg
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That sounds cool Reg. Believe it or not I've never even looked at any of those "how to" threads. I'll check it out and see if I can't contribute something.
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This is so stupid. I totally misunderstood your question. I thought you were asking whether I PLAYED these charts on a corporate gig! As I said I Originally Posted by Stevebol
bring some charts for the guys, but I don't have to read any of those charts. Just clarification.
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I was asking if you used them in any capacity. Reading, just a minder of chords or tunes, etc.... I only had one chart gig which was a wedding band and we used charts big time. Would have been totally lost without them. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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Yeah. well as I said I bring some charts, not all. I bring some if I think the piano player of bass player, or drummer in the case of an arrangement, might not know. I almost never use them on my gig. But with my other, main band, which is al original, I do sometimes have to read my own music, just to remind myself - as a safety net.
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