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I'll get a handle on the soloing business. Trading fours is going to get on my nerves a lot more but that's a different subject.
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02-13-2013 03:10 AM
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That's fine. This is EXACTLY like I play. But to say that the ONLY place it belongs is in a jazz club is short sighted I believe. There are SO FEW jazz clubs. I can play whatever I want the way I want anywhere. I play what I want, but I'm also aware of how the audience is receiving it. If the music is getting limp I want to cut it short because it's boring ME. If it's boring me it's gotta be boring anyone who's listening.
Originally Posted by Richb
It's great for you to say jazz should only be played in jazz clubs. I guess that's where you play jazz exclusively? I play small clubs, and a lot of colleges. Some jazz clubs. A lot of dives, some concert halls, museums, and some corporate gigs. I'm lucky enough to be known by the people who hire me to play those corporate gigs, so with proper volume I play anything I want. And then sometimes I'm hired, like Reg, to play because I can read well, or it's someone else's gig so I behave.
Where are these audiences that are going to support enough jazz venues in cities across the nation?
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LOL. OK. I don't think anyone is better than anybody. But that's me and a strange position for most people to understand. I don't thin music is a competition. I think music is music. But I do understand what you're staying there. What's novelty? Sharrock? Frissell? Do you mean originality by novelty? Originally Posted by Richb
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I'm not sure I understand-or maybe I'm afraid I do understand. Are you saying that "real jazz" is a style of music that cannot be enjoyed by anyone but those you consider to be serious jazz musicians? If that is true, then it is dead or dying and good riddence to it. Originally Posted by Richb
What exactly do you think the point of creating music is? Is the point to create a mathematical-like equation that can only be appreciated by an elite set of individuals with no other purpose than to supply some sort of self-indulgent exhibition of superiority for others to admire and revel in the thrill of knowing that the idiots of the world are incapable of even understanding your magnificence?
If you have created something that no-one likes other than other "jazz" musicians, then that thing you have created is not music-it is pure unadulterated, self-indulgent, shit.
If real jazz is defined as "music" that everyone but those "in-the-know" hate, then it is an art-form with no value.
Personally, I think it is far more difficult and "musician-like" to be capable of creating music that is good and that people can enjoy, than it is making music that is too complicated to be enjoyed by anyone but the mathemeticians in the music world. I think Louis Armstrong and Ella Fitzgerald and Charlie Parker and Miles and Methany and scores of other musicians who were actually capable of that and who were able to play awesome jazz and reach the multitudes would agree with me.
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So there's this architecture... the structural organization. This usually spatially fits into a "Form", which may or may not govern the overall structure.
The performance with it's constructive organization of the elements of the music being performed, the references, relationships, interrelationships and their development. This concept would not only comprehend that structure, but also the techniques and procedures used to create that solo. That would be quite a bit to comprehend, then have a system of categorizing and rating... hmmm
Then we have the creative process guidelines, again same process and also with relationship to the performer. The personal factors which make a jazz performer recognizable, (to knowledgeable listeners ?). Our style or what is sometimes called, " individual code" or usage of the jazz language.
I disagree with Rich in respect to the definition of Jazz, no right or wrong, different opinions... I believe "real jazz" needs an audience for the music to become jazz. To me Jazz is like a ritual or ceremony with communication between players and listeners.
I don't agree with the somewhat bohemian view of defining jazz. Not that I am not involved with the practice at home or private shows of non-standard jazz... as compared to... Self Indulged Public Practice at the audience's expense....
OK back to the chest-thumping... My gig last night... what Rich calls lounge music of the present as compared to the lounge music of the future... the usual, Silver's Liberated Bro type of tunes, Shorter, Mobley, Smith, Brecker, Wes and Benson all usual vecheiles to display our jazz skills. (or lack of). Anyway from 1 to 6 or 7 choruses... I think the only tunes I took one chorus were... Skydive, Take Five maybe some of the ballads, not all... I dig stretchin Midnight Mood and when tunes gets blusy... jazz versions of blues, MM and different relationships.
There are other methods of coherently structurally organizing a solo besides the 1+1 = 2 flavor. I've gone through that before... but is always a very useful topic for most.
So maybe that should be the direction of thread... what those organizational aspects of soloing are. Although the cutting edge with relationship to what... might be more interesting. A lot less work.
So we have contemporary compositions and players who play over them and then contemporary playing over standards...
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A couple days ago I FINALLY got around to playing along with BIAB. I guess using something like BIAB to swing to was just a mental block. It's made things a lot easier and I'm not going to sweat the soloing business. I won't do more than 3 choruses unless someone tells me to. That's not like a promise or anything.
I'm having fun with 'I Mean You' right now. Love these happy Monk tunes.
I need a ballad to work on.
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If You Never Come To Me
The Nearness Of You
You Don't Know What Love Is
Midnight Mood
Clockwise... harmonically a little more difficult
Detour Ahead
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Just for the other side, we were playing something, got all the applauses and wows, and never got to play there again, because everybody listened and watched us, and nobody was buying drinks. So, be aware of possibilities. Originally Posted by Reg
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This reminds me of several bands I've been in. One of the best bands in my area (I was in it) would play 3 or 4 days straight, but the poor club owner companied that he never really made any money from us because we drew the ice water crowd! But he kept booking us back because he loved us and we were very popular. Originally Posted by Vladan
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I'll check those out. Originally Posted by Reg
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From last weekend. Corporate gig. No compromise on blowing, just not a lot of stretching out. Basically 3 choruses per soloist. Quartet. We get to play more tunes
1st Set
Bye Bye Blackbird
Stella By Starlight
The Shadow of Your Smile (bossa)
Some Day My Prince Will Come
The Song Is You
Cissy Strut
Airegin
2nd Set
Take Five
Moon River
All The Things You Are
Alone Together
Have You Met Miss Jones?
I’ll Remember April
Why Do I Love You?
It Could Happen To You
3rd Set
I Hear A Rhapsody
Oleo
Soul Eyes
Milestones (original version)
Yours Is My Heart Alone
My Romance
Cherokee
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Do you use charts on these corporate gigs? Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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Yes I do. If it's my gig I do.
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Anyone who says they never use charts doesn't gig much. Just sayin'.
Happy VD everyone!
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Stevebol,
When someone says they are restricted ......I got to jump in. Relax my friend. I would suggest you don't take any advice that seriously....if you feel restricted there may be a reason you feel that way. "It is not right for you". You are an individual, and you need to be you. I never bought a album cause someone was following rules or was copying someones style. .......Every year there is a new batch of Jazzers that know the same theory, the same phrasing, the same techniques, the same solos they have studied, and they come out cookie cut and have no life, distinction or personality. We call them lick machines.
Man, be you. Dig it, "That is what you love about all the greats anyway". So sometimes start with chords, and sometimes start with single notes. If you feel like yelling....do it. If you feel like whispering so they get closer and then you yell in there ear, do it. You have created more Drama that way......Set us up, surprise us, make me smile, be playful, make yourself smile.
This is not a religion or a closed minded stiff rule based system. You’re free to roam the earth. Yes, composition is a good thing, The introduction, body and conclusion are good communication/speech skills......but mostly have fun! There is no restrictions, your heart should feel free to fly and have a life of your own. Be original and make up your own stuff. That is what I want to hear. I don't want to hear you play somebody else's stuff......Urgh!!!!!!! Do that in private in the beginning to learn. But once you know what to do.....drop it and be you......100% you.
To many players continue to listen and study way, way tooooooooo much and they loose or never create that little treasure chest of ideas that they have access to in their own minds their own soul. They spend too much time always picking fruit from someone else s tree.
What we want to hear are things that are fresh and unique-not because they are trying to be different, they are different when they are themselves. Express yourself your way. Here the suggestions……chew on them….it is good to learn…then go have a life of your own. You have heard “you don’t want to re-invent the wheel” yes you do, and many companies have made lots of money by doing that. Goodyear, firestone etc. They are re-inventing the wheel. So keep an open mind….stretch it wide….take it in, breath and blow our minds. You have access to material no one else has heard….your own head.
Things that have been done is finite, things that can be done is infinite.
Surprise me brother....
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Surprise me brother....
Yea... that's nice.
Hey Jeff that's pretty true... but there lots of gigs where no charts are needed. Most working jazz musicians know most of the tunes, and when we don't, we'll have it the 2nd time through. For most jazz gigs... that's part of the gig.
For performance or show style of gigs... through agencies, or when we're backing an artist, there are charts, just because of those reasons... it's someones show with arrangements of tunes. Usually set number of choruses for solos and the solo needs to be referenced to the arrangement... it's not really an interaction and react type of gig. The solos may be improvised... but within limits reflective of the performance or show. I can burn, create relationships, draw attention to my solo... but I don't want to cross that imaginary line of keeping the arrangement and the artist as the basic reference for all the music. Music for music's sake is not the basic reference... the show and the artist are.
I understand most don't think about this aspect of soloing, but it's very much part of being a working musician.
I'm with DR and Jeff with that concept of way too much time and energy of young or beginning players spent on trying to learn every version of everything. You can know every version of every chord... and still not be able to comp etc... learn the point of the skill and then fill in as you need.
Being a little more technical... understand the concept... then learn the applications.
Reg
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True...I guess I'm saying you're gonna play a heck of a lot of "chart gigs" before you can hang at that level...either that, or you learned by being dropped into the fire...which isn't always a bad thing... Originally Posted by Reg
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Yeah. I always bring some charts to my gigs, because I might want to do a chart that the bass player doesn't know. It's kind of a thumping your chest kind of thing not reading charts. "Uh, I think I've heard it. I may have played that tune a long time ago. What key? No I don't need a chart. You need an intro?" That type of thing. But sometimes I have half arrangements. I always print a set list, even for standards gigs because I don't want to stumble between tunes or try to come up with the next tune. The guys can quickly look down the list of tunes and object or complain that they don't know it or refuse to play it - Like you'd better not call Blue Bossa, or say they now a hip way of play it.
AND I know a lot of tunes but I'll always have my iPhone or iPad handy in case I need a refresher. But I don't know all the tunes. And my ears are really good, so most times I'm absolutely fine. It's fun flying by the seat of your pants anyway.
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Oh god do I hear you on this. I'll admit I can be an anal retentive control freak and not that big on spontaneity, but I hate it when people have the attitude that discussing some form or simply looking at a chart - or even TUNING - is some sort of sissy un-cool thing to do - and then they totally blow it by not knowing the tune. If you can have that attitude and play great, then great, but if you blow it I'm going to be pissed. I blow it all the time but I take responsibility for it and I don't attempt handicaps on myself just to show off or keep the music 'pure' or something. Let's not have any shame about being organized or wanting some security during the performance...and some respect for the audience. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
Chest thumping is a great way to put it. I've been in situations like that where I was so frustrated I practically wanted to scream at the other player during the tune.Last edited by JakeAcci; 02-15-2013 at 02:26 PM.
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I went to a Mick Goodrick clinic a few months ago, and Mick relayed that he heard that Jim Hall (who is now 82) did a gig recently (or maybe all of his gigs) and didn't play any single note lines, only chords. Mick said maybe it just took Jim Hall all this time to realize that that's the way he's supposed to play. Originally Posted by D.R. Auten
Stevebol,
When someone says they are restricted ......I got to jump in. Relax my friend. I would suggest you don't take any advice that seriously....if you feel restricted there may be a reason you feel that way. "It is not right for you". You are an individual, and you need to be you. I never bought a album cause someone was following rules or was copying someones style. .......Every year there is a new batch of Jazzers that know the same theory, the same phrasing, the same techniques, the same solos they have studied, and they come out cookie cut and have no life, distinction or personality. We call them lick machines.
Man, be you. Dig it, "That is what you love about all the greats anyway". So sometimes start with chords, and sometimes start with single notes. If you feel like yelling....do it. If you feel like whispering so they get closer and then you yell in there ear, do it. You have created more Drama that way......Set us up, surprise us, make me smile, be playful, make yourself smile.
This is not a religion or a closed minded stiff rule based system. You’re free to roam the earth. Yes, composition is a good thing, The introduction, body and conclusion are good communication/speech skills......but mostly have fun! There is no restrictions, your heart should feel free to fly and have a life of your own. Be original and make up your own stuff. That is what I want to hear. I don't want to hear you play somebody else's stuff......Urgh!!!!!!! Do that in private in the beginning to learn. But once you know what to do.....drop it and be you......100% you.
To many players continue to listen and study way, way tooooooooo much and they loose or never create that little treasure chest of ideas that they have access to in their own minds their own soul. They spend too much time always picking fruit from someone else s tree.
What we want to hear are things that are fresh and unique-not because they are trying to be different, they are different when they are themselves. Express yourself your way. Here the suggestions……chew on them….it is good to learn…then go have a life of your own. You have heard “you don’t want to re-invent the wheel” yes you do, and many companies have made lots of money by doing that. Goodyear, firestone etc. They are re-inventing the wheel. So keep an open mind….stretch it wide….take it in, breath and blow our minds. You have access to material no one else has heard….your own head.
Things that have been done is finite, things that can be done is infinite.
Surprise me brother....
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Hey Jeff... I play about 50/50. The best jazz gigs for me personally, as far as playing, which may or may not be best for the audience are no charts... we know the tunes and are aware and listening to where they may go. I'm past the point of worrying about solo shapes and balance... what's correct harmonically... My instincts are what they are... what I play already reflects what I know. I'm playing what I choose. If I'm really reading a chart, and I read well enough to be able to listen and think about whatever... I'm still reading a chart, I'm performing someones version of a tune. Which is cool,
But it's really fun for a tune to develop as your playing through... we the players develop together... like I was saying it's almost like a ritual... your really not sure where it may go.
But that being said, I have way to many binder collections with sample set lists for different styles of gigs. As Henry mentioned, that's pretty much the norm. The chest pumping thing... sissy un-cool issues....hmmm. The level of organization needs to be referenced to or represent the skill level of the players as well as the gig. All of which might seem subjective... but it really isn't. Go for a few month playing steady gigs, with doubles... there are standard levels of organization.... you become aware of the control freaks in your area and make choices. I don't have any problems either way. I'm very laid back... just the way I'm wired. I'm very use to being part of an ensemble...
Getting back to stevebol's original discussion about organizational aspects of soloing... I would balance your performance with your skill level... generally it better and easier to solo with what your accomplished at... not to mention much more fun.
There's a big difference between what you would practice as compared to what you would perform.
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That's pretty much what I figured...As a pro, you're going to meet some players again and again and develop a rapport...other times things might be more tentative with strangers (or you might get one of those rare magical meetings...) Originally Posted by Reg
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I'm one of those play it like you feel it guys. The more you listen, the more you have studied, and continue to study, the more you develop your taste and most importantly your INTUITION, the better you will be at this. I love jazz BECAUSE of it's spontaneity and intuitiveness. THAT'S why I do it. The more THINKING I put into it the further I get away from playing with this spontaneity. The structure will be there naturally, if you let it and if your skill level is high enough. But if I'm THINKING "Let me start out with single note lines, hit those ii-V patterns and licks I was working on, and then I'll go into double stops and build up to octaves and then go fast and end up with 4 bars of Coltrane changes" -- Yeah. That's good for practicing. But it'll more than likely sound stiff and planned.
I have done something like that in the studio when I'm overdubbing a solo. I'll found an area I like. In the middle section - "I like it when I do this chord thing. OK, I'll try something like that. This riff worked well. Maybe I'll try that."
Jazz, for me, is about paying it like I feel it, envision it in THE NOW. The more I do that the closer I come to the zone. I always play in the zone anyway, or almost always, unless my chops are down, then I worry about my chops or the changes. I've been doing this for so long. This is why you must learn the song and your tools. The more attention you have to devote to - what are the chord changes or rhythmic shapes? - the less I'll be able to just BE in that musical moment of intuition and spontaneity.
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Let me clarify what I mean by thinking. I refer to thinking as something you have to figure out. You know like 4,373,876 multiplied by 1,349. I have to THINK about that. But you ask me what my name is I just know it. Or if you ask me how to get to the the nearest store I LOOK at it in my mind to explain, but I KNOW this. If I'm playing and having to THINK about structure, beyond just shapes and colors, I'm going to severely slow up the process. If I have to THINK about how to spell a Major 9+11 or what the tritone substitute is or that latest lick I learned -- That's THINKING and not KNOWING. If I have to stop and count, where the downbeat is, or where the and of 4 is, I'm in trouble.
LOOKING is different than thinking. I look at the fretboard in my mind to KNOW the notes, but I'm not thinking. I KNOW where the b9, +11, all the altered tones, and where all the 3rds are. No thinking. Looking and knowing. But it takes much TIME invested over years to get to that point, most times. Practicing and drilling and playing are the ways to get there faster. There's no shortcuts.Last edited by henryrobinett; 02-16-2013 at 02:46 AM.
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I might argue that playing for yourself is when the ego does dissappear...all the other stuff, the hot rehearsed licks, even the unprepared "searching" is about looking for acceptance..."i'm cool, right?" "look at me!" can easily be translated to "like me, please! think highly of me!" Originally Posted by Richb
When we truly play to please ourself, those defense mechanisms dissappear...
I have nothing scientific to base this on, but I do know of the videos/recordings i have posted here, the ones where I really actually recieved honest positive feedback and not just "good for you
's" were when I just sort of went for it...nothing fancy, took a few chances, followed my brain...a musical "journal entry" of sorts...
I dunno...I'm rambling.
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