Herb Ellis: Shape System

[barrymclark]

There are times when that's the way Herb would do it, but this isn't one of them. It's good to play around with the scale fingering and try some lines of your own. You'll find that slide convenient.

Already kind of am. On some level it is perhaps physically a bit more simple too I'm finding.

[JazzinNY]

I have come to really like that reach down to the 4th fret.

[Stuart Elliott]

First question. Might seem pointless. Page 6, example 1 for Cmaj7. The B is fretted on the G string whereas I would typically reach for the B on the D string. Is there a functional reason for the B on the G string as opposed to the B on the D string?

Good catch. The fingering for the C Major 7 on the previous page has a pinky stretch on the D string for the B.

I've found some inconsistencies in the fingerings in Ellis' book. More on those later.

[barrymclark]

Good catch. The fingering for the C Major 7 on the previous page has a pinky stretch on the D string for the B.

I've found some inconsistencies in the fingerings in Ellis' book. More on those later.

In this case I just figured they showed the 4th position pattern for the major scale that way because that was how it is normally taught but changed the B3 to the G string for the sake of the method and didn't consider the difference big enough to point out.

[MarkRhodes]

I've found some inconsistencies in the fingerings in Ellis' book. More on those later.

This is an interesting subject. I have a problem with a line in his rhythm changes solo in "Rhythm Shapes"----I just can't see why he fingered it that way---but many of the apparent inconsistences fall away when you start to see that sometimes a fingering looks wrong because you're thinking in terms of the shape he started in but mentally he has already shifted to the next one. Sometimes you have to realize where he is going to appreciate why a specific fingering is not what you would otherwise expect.

I'm not saying that is always the case but I think it often is.

[barrymclark]

Again with the Cmaj7 Example 1 at the tip of page 6. In that run, there is a maj6. Is there a reason that is included? I get the point is to use the chord tones or arpeggio tones as focal points. Is that what is being shown here? Although not part of the arpeggio. Yes? Am I making sense? Ha ha

[AlsoRan]

Again with the Cmaj7 Example 1 at the tip of page 6. In that run, there is a maj6. Is there a reason that is included? I get the point is to use the chord tones or arpeggio tones as focal points. Is that what is being shown here? Although not part of the arpeggio. Yes? Am I making sense? Ha ha

I am away from the book at the moment, Barry, but I do remember that among the shapes he mentions, arpeggios, major scale, etc.., he also had a chromatic scale where all the notes in a given position are used.

You might want to look and see if that major 6 was a part of the chromatic scale/shape that he lists.

[gggomez]

barrymclark maj6 =13th. A very bluesy sound. eg BB King used it alot rather than the 7th, part of his signature sound. Grant Green used it a lot over the dominant 1 chord of a blues also rather than the 7th (listen to Grant Dimensions lots of 13th note happening there in the kind of B part of the head when he is doing those arpeggios. GG seemed to save the dominant 7th arpeggio for the iv chord as the 7th of iv = the minor 3rd of i. Put those 2 bits together in some lines and it will sound very bluesy.

[barrymclark]

I am away from the book at the moment, Barry, but I do remember that among the shapes he mentions, arpeggios, major scale, etc.., he also had a chromatic scale where all the notes in a given position are used.

You might want to look and see if that major 6 was a part of the chromatic scale/shape that he lists.

It is. The chromatic scale he introduces is the straight chromatic. No funny business.

barrymclark maj6 =13th. A very bluesy sound. eg BB King used it alot rather than the 7th, part of his signature sound. Grant Green used it a lot over the dominant 1 chord of a blues also rather than the 7th (listen to Grant Dimensions lots of 13th note happening there in the kind of B part of the head when he is doing those arpeggios. GG seemed to save the dominant 7th arpeggio for the iv chord as the 7th of iv = the minor 3rd of i. Put those 2 bits together in some lines and it will sound very bluesy.

I get that but up to this point, it has been straight arpeggios. This one introduces a tone outside of that arpeggio without fanfare. Just wondering why it was introduced at this point is all.

[MarkRhodes]

I get that but up to this point, it has been straight arpeggios. This one introduces a tone outside of that arpeggio without fanfare. Just wondering why it was introduced at this point is all.

There's little fanfare anywhere in that book. ;o) The key is to relate the lines to the shapes. When you have the shapes down, you know where the chord tones are without thinking about it (-which makes it convenient to move the shapes around). Just keep playing the lines, being aware of the shape. Then start on the solos, a chorus at a time.

[barrymclark]

There's little fanfare anywhere in that book. ;o) The key is to relate the lines to the shapes. When you have the shapes down, you know where the chord tones are without thinking about it (-which makes it convenient to move the shapes around). Just keep playing the lines, being aware of the shape. Then start on the solos, a chorus at a time.

That's kinda what I was figuring. Just wanted to be sure I wasn't missing something. Thanks!

[barrymclark]

I am on the second shape now. Still on the C chord. Coming along nicely. I am spending an obscene amount of time on this but I am hearing little things in my playing that I want to address. One of them was a slight 'loping' feel on the chromatic rundown. So....I am hanging out on these parts as I wrangle these other issues.

[barrymclark]

The way I am practicing so far:

(with iRealb providing rhythm)

chord for a couple of beats followed by the runs or arpeggios.

For instance, for the Cmaj, I play the chord then run the chromatic downward and the arpeggio upwards.

C7, I play the chord for a couple of beats and then the associated run.

Cmaj7, again, I play the chord for a couple of beats and then the associated run.

Same with shape 2 and just now starting Shape 3 with the F chord.

What as causing the loping that I mentioned in the previous post was, when I played faster, my pinky was slamming down harder on the strings than the other fingers so that created that loping feel. I have that seemingly taken care of.

[AlsoRan]

What as causing the loping that I mentioned in the previous post was, when I played faster, my pinky was slamming down harder on the strings than the other fingers so that created that loping feel. I have that seemingly taken care of.

I have an ongoing problem with my pinky slamming down and creating a hammer-on ghost note micro-seconds before my pick attack. I have worked through it for the most part but I have one of those hands that has that comparatively short pinky finger that I am sure many guitar teachers have shook their head at.

It is always a battle, especially at speed but over time, I have learned to keep my pinky closer and closer to the fretboard so that it is easier to time the fretting of the string with the pick attack.

By the way, I am still stuck at learning the first solo, Blues in C. I am about 3/4 of the way through and hope to have it memorized and up to speed by the middle of August.

I have not been incorporating the shapes in my thinking because I am having so much success with just using Blues Scales - but I do plan to incorporate the extra notes and shapes once I have the song down. I have got two Blues studies going on at the same time and hope to merge them by the end of August - Blues Scales, Licks, and Herb's Shapes.

[monk]

If a LH finger hits the string before the pick attack or if the pick hits the string ahead of the LH finger, the problem is synchronization. Howard Roberts borrowed the drumming term "flam" to describe this. You are producing an unwanted grace note. The problem is caused by the RH and LH not acting simultaneously. Ideally, the pick and the fretting finger should arrive at their respective points at the same time.

Most often the problem is the result of rushing through fundamentals or trying to play faster than one is able to execute cleanly. The hands don't work together. The cure is simple. Deliberate focused practice at very slow tempi making sure that the fretting finger and pick coincide to produce a single note.

[AlsoRan]

If a LH finger hits the string before the pick attack or if the pick hits the string ahead of the LH finger, the problem is synchronization. Howard Roberts borrowed the drumming term "flam" to describe this. You are producing an unwanted grace note. The problem is caused by the RH and LH not acting simultaneously. Ideally, the pick and the fretting finger should arrive at their respective points at the same time.

Most often the problem is the result of rushing through fundamentals or trying to play faster than one is able to execute cleanly. The hands don't work together. The cure is simple. Deliberate focused practice at very slow tempi making sure that the fretting finger and pick coincide to produce a single note.

I have been working on this off and on for a few months and remain vigilant. It seems to have helped.

Its a shame I could not have been born with all my fingers nice, long, and of even length like Ol' Pagnanini.

[AlsoRan]

FYI, when you get to page 21, third stanza, last measure, I don't think it was correctly transcribed. I stayed up until midnight trying to get this part down and then realized that I was misled. Listen to it very closely and you will see what I believe are two errors in the measure - a left out note after the second C, and a extra C after the very last note, which was D.

Going to bed, now...

[MarkRhodes]

FYI, when you get to page 21, third stanza, last measure, I don't think it was correctly transcribed. I stayed up until midnight trying to get this part down and then realized that I was misled. Listen to it very closely and you will see what I believe are two errors in the measure - a left out note after the second C, and a extra C after the very last note, which was D.

Going to bed, now...

That measure---the 7th measure of the fourth chorus, or the final measure the third line on page 21--gave me more trouble than anything else in that whole solo. I agree there's a mistake in the transcription of that measure. One advantage of having something that will slow down playback (Transcribe, Amazing Slow Downer, whatever) is that it makes it easier to hear subtle things like that. And once you hear it clearly, it's easier to play it right. (At that point, you don't need the transcription anymore.)

[AlsoRan]

Question: Have any of you who have used this book been able to see progress in visualizing the shapes while you play? If so, has this ability to visualize the shapes improved your improvisation skills?

[MarkRhodes]

Question: Have any of you who have used this book been able to see progress in visualizing the shapes while you play? If so, has this ability to visualize the shapes improved your improvisation skills?

Yes and yes.
You can get a taste of this by taking a chorus of "Blues in C" and playing it in Db or Bb. The lines will be fingered the same but you'll be in different places on the neck. (If you want to play the same lines in F or G, you'll have to "translate" them into other chord shapes.)

[AlsoRan]

There weren't a lot of responses, Mark. Maybe there aren't that many who were able to try this method or be able to stick with it. Maybe there are several but they have been quietly working alone. I am finding it to be more intuitive than the Elliot Jazz Soloing book.

I was kind of hoping that maybe in September or October we could tie it in with the practical standards thread and get Wiz to choose a Jazz Blues song for the month, one that does not have a whole lot of changes.

I am sticking with this one so far, myself and now need to learn the last page of Blues in C. Then I will really bare down on associating shapes and introducing my own improvisational ideas, the way that Jazz in NY did.

[barrymclark]

I didn't reply as I am just not there yet.

[MarkRhodes]

I didn't reply as I am just not there yet.

Not to worry. Take your time. Get it right. That's the main thing.

[AlsoRan]

I didn't reply as I am just not there yet.

I am not there yet either, Barry. Truth be told I may never get there. But, after failing to "get there" using other methods (due in a large part to lack of commitment, time constraints, and other leisure priorities pulling at me), it seems as though this might be the ticket.

Many have mentioned to start with the Blues, but I foolish went immediately to "All the Things You Are" and other songs. It ate my lunch and I just could not put up the amount of fight required to get there.

I must have Blues in my soul, because I can "feel" when chord changes are coming and I kind of now where I am throughout the form. This has made things one hell of a lot easier.

Once I get this down, then I will start throwing in some 2-5s in the changes and will slowly make the progressions more elaborate. After a couple of years of searching, I am hoping this will be the ticket.

Keep striving, my friend.

[odel]

OK, I’ve been struggling on an off with the Blues in C (except I prefer to play it in Bb) and I’d say that I have noticed an improvement due to my struggles with the visualization. The biggest benefit is that I can slip comfortably now into playing a blues using standard pentatonic positions we all know and these Herb shapes (from the first study) without skipping a beat. It gives my regular blues playing a broader musical palette.

The actual solo took me ages to get comfy enough to play alone with, and if I want to play it almost exact (or as close as the transcription suggests) then I still have to look at the book in parts and listen sometimes to the recording, but I do feel comfortable enough with it and am glad I continued working with it. I can’t say I automatically slip into every visualized shape on cue but I get enough of them at key moments to help navigate the major changes (e.g., to the V, which I usually was never very comfy with in my regular jamming). Will continue with this book series for sure, it’s starting to make cohesive sense.

Like AlsoRan mentioned above, I have the books and started on ATTYA since I had those chords under my hands a while back but never got far with it and am thinking the next one to try seriously is the second blues in Swing Guitar. I did use the Rhythm Shapes book to get a grip on the basic chord progression for that tune but I think the books make most sense to me working through Swing Blues three solos, then ATTYA, then Rhythm Shapes (or maybe that latter two can safely be interchanged??).

Anyone here have a go at the second blues in Swing Guitar yet? Does it get easier as one moves through the book?