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Oh I know it. I've made a fool of myself for 40 years now. I won't stop here. Ha ha
Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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06-08-2015 09:40 AM
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I just started in with this study myself. Its been fun.
Now, I am wondering whether or not I should switch over to Jimmy Bruno's fingering and give up my CAGED patterns I have worked so hard on. I have Jimmy's book on fingering that I bought several years ago.
You folks have convinced me to pull it out and give it a look-see.
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Alsoran -
If you do change, be sure to use the latest five fingerings he switched to several years ago.
I think that Jimmy's fingerings are great because they require no long stretches.
With smaller hands like mine, very helpful.
Best to sign up at the Jimmy Bruno Guitar Workshop to get his personal feedback on your mastery of these crucial elements.
BTW, they are the same as Howard Roberts taught long ago.Last edited by boatheelmusic; 06-08-2015 at 10:01 AM.
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Originally Posted by boatheelmusic
Thanks! I will make sure that I compare the two.
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Hey, Also, Jimmy Bruno's five fingerings are the same thing as CAGED. (He doesn't call it that but it's the same thing.) Originally Posted by AlsoRan
Herb's Shape One (pg 4 and 5, "Swing Blues") is Jimmy's fingering six. Herb doesn't attach significance to the names of the shapes but Jimmy does. Jimmy names them from the lowest tone of the fingering. Thus, for Jimmy, Herb's shape one is fingering six. (He calls it "six" because the first note is the sixth of that major scale; for the key of C, the sixth is A, and A minor is the relative minor of C. The fingering here is what is called the 'natural minor'.)
Herb's shape two (pg 7) is Jimmy's fingering seven. (Jimmy adds the seventh below the root to this fingering.)
Herb's shape three (pg 9) is Jimmy's fingering three (-starting on the third of the major scale.) Herb's example is an F chord and the third of F is A (-A minor, if you make it a triad.)
Herb actually uses Jimmy's other shapes also, but as minor or dominant (-Jimmy's 'fingering two' starts from the second degree of a major scale, the root of a ii---Dorian minor--chord, and Jimmy's fingering five starts from the root of V7 chord for Herb.
If this is confusing, stop thinking about it. One day you'll be playing and go, "O, this is the same as that other thing, just looked at a different way. Cool."
The main difference between Herb and Jimmy----or so it appears to me---is that Herb wants to teach you lines that you relate to shapes, whereas Jimmy wants to teach you the fingerings and the thinking seems to be the lines will come of themselves. (I prefer to learn lines but I see value in Jimmy's approach. If I had to choose only one, it would be Herb's, but I can work from both, so why not?)
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"Hey, Also, Jimmy Bruno's five fingerings are the same thing as CAGED. (He doesn't call it that but it's the same thing.) "
Be careful here, I have a book called "Scales over Chords " by Savidge and Vradenburg where the CAGED fingerings are different than Jimmy's.
Jimmy's work very well.
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Yes they do. I learned those five fingerings as a young guy from a jazz teacher. He didn't call them anything, just fingerings. (There was a sixth one, the one built on the fourth of the scale, but there's such an overlap between it and the next one that there's little practical reason to use both. Same with the fingering starting on the 7th and on the root. One is enough there. Jimmy uses the one starting on the 7th.) Originally Posted by boatheelmusic
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I can't help but think about a section in the Bill Elliot Jazz Guitar Soloing book in which he stresses the importance of fingering. He alludes to the fact that after awhile, you will know the notes and sounds just like you would a typewriter and its letters and symbols, and that's purely through your hand/finger placement position.
A comment that Henry Robinett mentioned in another thread has also been sticking in my mind.
Henry said he looks at a fretboard the way a pianist looks at his piano. He know the notes by sight. Andreas Oberg says the same thing. For me, this is one heck of a high level of learning that separates the highly skilled.
I am trying to Bill's idea of consistent finger that allows you to know the notes just by position and feel, and combine that with Henry's fretboard view, which will allow you to position your hands above the proper frets and strings.
Maybe Jimmy's fingerings can help facilitate this.
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AlsoRan -
That's just what they do for me, and when coupled with the reference chords I posted, allow me to instantly get in place and play. My fingers know where the sounds are, increasingly.
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Carol Kaye stresses this too. (Not only for playing but for reading. It's crucial for reading.) It's not that only one fingering or another will work, but one has to have what Reg calls a "default". Originally Posted by AlsoRan
Herb makes a point of giving his fingerings in this book (and the other two in the series.)
One can master one way of doing something (-say, basic voicings for 7th chords with their roots on the low E and A strings) and add another way later (-such as playing seventh chords on the top four strings in all inversions) but I think it would be difficult to learn both ways at the same time.
For this material, I'm going with Herb's fingerings.
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As mentioned, I am working with Rich Ralston's primer at the moment as well as this one when it comes in. Originally Posted by AlsoRan
I am a big fan of seeing things through to the end... and then going back through it at a much slower pace.
Now that I have gotten better with iRealb, I can quickly make practice tracks on the fly. Rather nice.
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Update: book should be here today.
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By the way,
I have been learning a lot of licks and fills and I have found in my humble opinion (IMHO) Jim Ferguson's book All Blues Soloing is chock full of them along with some theory, scales and shapes. Essential Tools: The Blues Scales, (guitar edition) by Dan Greenblatt also has a lot of them. There is also a 50 Jazz Blues Licks DVD. So if you are looking for some lines, licks, and fills, these are my favorites for Jazz Blues.
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Book is here. Starting to read in in my little breaks at work.
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Great! As enthused as you are, please don't skip anything. It's better to go slow on the first things and really have them down than to rush along (-which is what I did the first time, and the second) and not have things clear in your mind and under your fingers. It's not rocket science but the basics are just that. Originally Posted by barrymclark
Book is here. Starting to read in in my little breaks at work.
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That's what I am doing. I am trying be sure to pace myself so that I am able to do each part reasonably quick on call. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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So true. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
The goal is not to just learn to play the licks and solos, but to be able to internalize them and learn the concepts. (But I know you already knew that, Barry and Mark).
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Yup! Sal Gentile was the guy whom gave me my proper send off into the world of jazz. One of the things he told me and repeated was to not just play some rudiment mindlessly. Internalize it. Feel it. Know it like the sound of your own voice. Eventually, you'll think less of the notes and more of the context like when you say a sentence... You spit it out with little attention paid to the words you choose. Instead, you focus on the message and emphasis. Originally Posted by AlsoRan
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That is true. But at least in my case there was another layer: my technique was spotty. Now is not the time to go into my (mis)adventures in picking, but looking back, I think I would be further along today if I had just gone more slowly and adapted the imperfect picking technique I developed as a kid. For years I tried to improve my picking, which lead me to make big changes, and they in turn required me to a) learn everything over again and b) focus more on picking exercises than on lines. Just make the lines come out even. If you can do that, great. If not, figure out why not and fix it in the context of that line. My 2 cents. Originally Posted by AlsoRan
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I thought I could join this study group, then I realized I actually had a copy of Blues Shapes which looks like an even earlier book. I may have to pick up Swing Blues as well. It may be a good way for me to wade into Jazz.
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"Blues Shapes" is an earlier book. I've never been able to find a copy. Would love to. Originally Posted by rave
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First question. Might seem pointless. Page 6, example 1 for Cmaj7. The B is fretted on the G string whereas I would typically reach for the B on the D string. Is there a functional reason for the B on the G string as opposed to the B on the D string?
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That's a common question. It helps to play the scale for that shape a few times. It's convenient for that B, the 7th of C major, to be fingered next to the C. One can slide from one note to the other. Originally Posted by barrymclark
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It isn't going to get in my way too bad. I'll just have to, as you say, play through our a few times to where my pinky doesn't instantly reach for that D string major 7th. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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There are times when that's the way Herb would do it, but this isn't one of them. It's good to play around with the scale fingering and try some lines of your own. You'll find that slide convenient. Originally Posted by barrymclark
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