Jazz Guitar Exercises That Are a Waste of Time?

[henryrobinett]

LOL! Actually on my website for guitar instruction I have intermediate classes which most people would think of as advanced!

[henryrobinett]

@ henryr: I avoided this thread for a long time. I figured I wasn't an advanced player so I better keep quiet. I was hoping all the advanced players would come out talk about the ways they have wasted time. Maybe a good fight about how much scale running to do. But instead, you guys started talking about neuroscience. I still avoided the thread. I figured I don't know anything about neuroscience so I better keep quiet. But then somebody said how scientific knowledge was the only reliable knowledge. And that pissed me off, so I had to make a joke which flopped and needed to be explained. Frankly, I'd be happy if all the advanced players could focus on the OP's original question. But in answer to your question as to how the thread got derailed, I think all of you are about equally to blame and I am somewhat less so.

Well I hope you can see it wasn't me talking about neuroscience, except to poo-poo the notion.

I've said several times, I haven't wasted time, except by those few periods where I took a break from digging in. I spent a lot of time on scales, modes, arpeggios, tunes, ii_V patterns, exercises for the left and right hand. I spent a lot of time trying to play fast and not enough time trying to play slow. Not enough time on reading or studying enough varied styles. Not enough time working with sounds and tone. But I can't think of any thing that was not worthwhile. Really. All of it has been valuable. Even and especially big doses of noodling. Sometimes not enough. I needed to work a LOT more with live musicians. If anything the problem has been, generally, more time practicing alone in relationship with working the tunes out with live drummers and bass players, piano players. So the communication was cockeyed when practicing. I'm not communicating with anyone, so I tend to play too much.

And I've played a lot of gigs. Not nearly enough in the last couple of years. Teaching, raising kids. But that makes a huge difference. Learning to play around the corners of tunes with the drummer, responding with comping. I don't know how to PRACTICE comping. You have to do it with a band. Some one can hip me to how to practice comping, that'd be great. Listen.

[Jonzo]

Henry,

I would be interested in reading "How to Practice" if it is available.

The essential problem of learning a large body of skills (or information), is that drilling will allow you to learn the skill, but review is necessary to maintain it. As you proceed in learning more and more skills, you end up with an iceberg of knowledge, with a few new skills at the tip that you are drilling to learn, and the majority of the iceberg older skills to maintain. How do you recommend that students schedule the review of an ever-expanding body of decaying skills?

[princeplanet]

Don't know about you guys, but here are a few things I'd like to know more about:

1. Method. Is there a universally acknowledged, most efficient way to retain "muscle memory". Is there a credible body of research to support any such method?

2. Repetition. Is there a minimum beyond which we achieve little or no value? How varied is this "minimum" amongst us? Is there a minimum required number of days for the memory to be ingrained long term? Why? Is there a physical (neurological) endowment that make some of us learn faster?

3. Memory. When committing material to memory, is it best to concentrate on one idea at a time in order to not confuse the burning in process of the memory?Will the brain / nervous system tolerate concurrent learning of several ideas? Is there a limit? Do some of us have a higher limit than others? Why?

4. Reviewing. If I were to "burn in" say, 20 complex "ideas" or devices in a serial manner over say a 10 month period, could I review them all after this period efficiently? Or is it better to review far more often (at the expense of time spent committing fresh material)? Are some of us hardwired to be more efficient using one method over the other. Again, why?

5. Limit. Will the brain retain everything in muscle memory if ingrained sufficiently? Should we have more faith in this ability?


These are off the top of my head. I'm sure I can think of others. Just wanted to try to get this interesting discussion more focused on how to actually practice using specific techniques.

[bobby d]

In a Guitar Player interview Howard Roberts also said "if you don't use it you lose it." He was referring to learning a new riff, scale, tune etc. that doesn't get used for a period of time, not so much motor skills.

But after lots of repetition for a period of time the odds of forgetting something decreases. But this is also a natural law that applies to pretty much anything.

[Reg]

Maybe the subject has been covered...or at least beat into the ground.

I don't get to practice much because I don't have the time. When I do... I review skills required for important gigs or sessions, at least to me.

I don't practice playing tunes, I practice the skills required to play the tunes. Granted I know most tunes or will know after one time through. If there is a chart... I know the tune by looking at the chart.

I memorize tunes by understanding what they are... I don't have to play a tune to remember the form, changes or melody.

Different players play tunes differently, I think I read Henry's post about all players being different with how they learn etc... well different players also play differently...

So maybe we should discuss what makes an advanced player, what's the skill set. Should be somewhat simple to make list of physical and technical requirements. We all probably have our preferences as to what's the order of importance. But we should be able to come up with the requirements. I have degrees but they're from long ago.

As to how we use those skills could be the next discussion... would be subjective to a point... but we all seem to know when someone plays at that advanced level. I'm not really a guitar teacher, I can play and explain how I play and approach music ...but don't already have preset check list or curriculum.

Comping, harmonic, rhythmic, melodic... Ears

improve, all the technical BS, methods of development etc... Ears

reading... knowing and being aware of the tunes and their history...Ears

Compositional skills ??? Ears

Performance... posture, putting what you know together??? Ears

I do believe you don't need to know everything to be at the advanced level, but need enough to be able to perform in different settings.

Example being... to be an advanced level player with comping, you don't need all inversions, all the voicings etc... but you need to understand what comping is and be able to cover what's required when playing Jazz tunes. That is more than simply playing the basic changes... you should be aware of what those changes can mean, where they could go and be able to hear when someone else does create relationships and develops a harmonic concept.

Anyway... I will probably be over the top... but it's nice to be real musical settings and understand what's going on and back up what your playing... I love giving horn players shit...

Reg

[henryrobinett]

Henry,

I would be interested in reading "How to Practice" if it is available.

The essential problem of learning a large body of skills (or information), is that drilling will allow you to learn the skill, but review is necessary to maintain it. As you proceed in learning more and more skills, you end up with an iceberg of knowledge, with a few new skills at the tip that you are drilling to learn, and the majority of the iceberg older skills to maintain. How do you recommend that students schedule the review of an ever-expanding body of decaying skills?

Thanks for your interest Jonzo!

The Art of Practice is just for my students. At this point at least. I don't want to give EVERYTHING away! LOL.

For me "burning things in" requires time. It's the consistency that's important over many days. I've come up with something I refer to my students as "3 times done." After spending the first day or so practicing very hard on something (or week) it's time to put it in the review column or list.

This is just what I do. And this is what I encourage my students to do. It's just one part of a method. It's not meant in anyway to be THE WAY IT MUST BE DONE. It's just what works for me.


I have the student compile a list of everything he/she is practicing. Take a minute to be very organized. Scales, arpeggios, Exercises (for exercises I number them and put them in an order; easy to difficult perhaps), songs, reading, picking, transcriptions, etc.. Whatever I'm working on goes into one of those columns. I come up with some system for keys for each column. Damn, this sounds complicated! I decide roughly how much time I'm going to spend.

NOW I rotate everything. From left to right, I practice all the items, one at a time, 3 TIMES DONE. This means I practice each thing three times in a row WITHOUT MAKING A MISTAKE before I move on to the next item. This maintains that each thing is review. I want my mind/fingers to remember, to re-familiarize and to not forget. 3 times in a row is an arbitrary number, but if you can get through it without making a mistake after three times, it's good for today. I'll do it again tomorrow or in a few days or week - however long it takes to get back to it in your practice cycle.

The key is I don't try and do it all in one day. I keep notes and start up from where I left off the day before. I also do each and everything all up the entire neck, leaving no holes or unknown spots. When I do triad arpeggios, for instance, I do all of them in one key from the 1st fret to the 22nd or so. When I've done the triad arpeggios in one key I move on to the 7th arpeggios in the NEXT key up the neck. The next day I'll do whatever is next on my list, if I've finished.

There are all kinds of ways of organizing this. It can take a week to get back to the rotation. Somethings I might do a little every day, like improv or transcriptions or reading. But the point is not to have an increasing body of "decaying skills." It takes time to incorporate these things into your playing, into your mind and into your "finger memory".

I hope this gives you some ideas and I hope it makes some sense.

[henryrobinett]

In a Guitar Player interview Howard Roberts also said "if you don't use it you lose it." He was referring to learning a new riff, scale, tune etc. that doesn't get used for a period of time, not so much motor skills.

But after lots of repetition for a period of time the odds of forgetting something decreases. But this is also a natural law that applies to pretty much anything.

I took one of those three day seminars with Howard Roberts. It was great. I'm sure a lot of the stuff I've learned, applied and incorporated came from his seminars. It was so long ago.

[JakeAcci]

What is gained by defining an "advanced" player?

[henryrobinett]

I wrote a blog awhile ago that might be germane to the general discussion of practicing.

The Art of Improvisation I | Henry Robinett Guitar Lessons

[henryrobinett]

What is gained by defining an "advanced" player?

Jake - I don't know. Maybe to provide goals?

[mr. beaumont]

You know my comment on levels....the only one to ever be is "learner."

Said the perpetual intermediate...

[Jonzo]

Henry--

I can see the three column thing being useful for maintaining a relatively small group of skills. But if you are continually learning new skills over many years, you eventually have thousands of skills to maintain. I don't understand how your system would address this.

Everything "burned in" eventually fades if you don't review it. I can't remember the phone number at my last address, though it was once burned in.

[Reg]

Hey Jake... I would think the thought process would help guitarists not waste as much time. They could become aware of where or what they might want to develop in their playing. And what or where different developed skills are used for... besides simply going through the process or paying teachers to get you through the process.

The term is whatever... who cares. We have been using the term throughout this thread... I thought maybe defining the term might clear up the ??

What's the point of playing the guitar?

Reg

[henryrobinett]

I can see the three column thing being useful for maintaining a relatively small group of skills. But if you are continually learning new skills over many years, you eventually have thousands of skills to maintain. I don't understand how your system would address this.

Well you didn't read or understand what I wrote. I never said anything about three columns. The columns and categories are ever expanding. You add the new things you're practicing in some column or category. YOU make the columns, not me.

[Reg]

I wrote a blog awhile ago that might be germane to the general discussion of practicing.

The Art of Improvisation I | Henry Robinett Guitar Lessons

I like your style Henry, good read.

[henryrobinett]

Thanks Reg!

[Jonzo]

Well you didn't read or understand what I wrote. I never said anything about three columns. The columns and categories are ever expanding. You add the new things you're practicing in some column or category. YOU make the columns, not me.

I am trying to understand you.

So, do you eventually end up with thousands of items in hundreds of columns?

[henryrobinett]

Yeah, unless and until you can begin whittling them out and pick out the important from the less important. So many things fall into similar categories. It's always best to start smaller so as not to become overwhelmed right away. Three times done, or three times in a row without making a mistake takes this into account. ONE THING AT A TIME! If you have REALLY DONE each thing to DONE - a finished thing - you have it under your belt and you're not fumbling over it, then it's a review thing. Now, for myself, I've streamlined it so I just do it one time, unless I make a mistake, which I do from time to time. Then it's 3 times in a row.

Three times in a row can turn into 350 times. It depends on how well you know it. That's why this arbitrary number works. It allows you time to rotate and not get bored on any one thing, yet you're moving forward.

[Jonzo]

You said "Yeah", so I want to make sure that I am understanding you correctly. A student might actually have hundreds of columns and thousands of items?

I want to understand how this works from a practical standpoint. I think you are saying that I would make some sort of notation by these items to indicate how well I know them. Then each day I would scan all of the items and intuitively choose which ones to review.

Wouldn't the notations expire over time? Something that I would give myself an A+ on today I could only play at a D level a year from now. How to you take decay over time into account?

I am piecing this together from all of your posts, so excuse me if I am getting it wrong. Am I describing your system correctly?

[henryrobinett]

So, do you eventually end up with thousands of items in hundreds of columns?

Hundreds of columns? Not me. I manage to put everything under columns like scales, arpeggios, transcriptions, improv, reading, solo guitar, exercises. Those are my basic columns. Yours would be different. I find a place for each item under certain existing categories. Blues could be another category. Bop licks. ii-V patterns could be another.

Some things I just don't practice any more. Eventually you'll move things out as no longer being useful for reasons that you've either grown out of it, learned it beyond all doubt or changed your mind about it. The thing about this is to constantly be fluid and creative and moving. You must decide what is working from what is no longer working or useful.

[henryrobinett]

You said "Yeah", so I want to make sure that I am understanding you correctly. A student might actually have hundreds of columns and thousands of items?

I want to understand how this works from a practical standpoint. I think you are saying that I would make some sort of notation by these items to indicate how well I know them. Then each day I would scan all of the items and intuitively choose which ones to review.

Wouldn't the notations expire over time? Something that I would give myself an A+ on today I could only play at a D level a year from now. How to you take decay over time into account?

I am piecing this together from all of your posts, so excuse me if I am getting it wrong. Am I describing your system correctly?

Not exactly. I set the system in motion and don't "decide" which ones to review. I know each morning when I get up what I will be working on. I keep a separate log for ideas, observations, notes after gigs when I messed something up and what I need to do to address that problem so it doesn't occur again. I don't intuitively decide what I will practice. That's decided by my list. I'm already in rotation on it.

[Jonzo]

How many items would you say your average student maintains on their lists?

I am curious about this because I use a computerized system very similar to yours. I am sure there are advantages and disadvantages to each method, but we are just using different tools to achieve the same result.

[henryrobinett]

I have no idea.

[Solo Flight]

I actually use a similar system for my tune repertoire - that is, the ones I can play without a chart. I keep track of the date whenever I review a tune so I can see which tunes I haven't played in a while. It's very helpful since I know that there are some tunes that I would otherwise not practice for one reason or the other. I'm less organized about practicing the different aspects of technique but Henry's advice makes sense and I'm going to try to incorporate technique into my practice chart as well. Thanks Henry.