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Of course. You keep coming back to this as if anyone ever suggested that one should watch TV while learning new things on the guitar. No one did. The point was always about repeating things you know, over and over, to gain more facility with them. Some have found watching TV conducive to this. The mind isn't needed for that sort of repetitive work and watching TV might keep you from becoming bored playing, say, a certain arpeggio over and over. Who needs to think about the major scale while playing it???
Originally Posted by Dana
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12-12-2012 10:14 AM
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I think practically all (if not all) of the physical process of playing on the guitar what your mind wants to play relies (or should rely) on so-called muscle memory. If you have to think about where a note is or how to form a particular chord, the muscle memory isn't there and that slows you down. The goal of course is to be able to execute an idea without thinking about the process. Mark, you said something interesting (sorry my computer won't let me use the quote function for some reason): If you're working up a solo or etude from a book, or that you've transcribed, that can involve muscle memory, though it is curious that some parts were always easy, while others remain a challenge despite isolated repetition. I think this happens only because we haven't done enough work on the hard parts. A teacher of mine once pointed out that in a typical AABA tune, if we always practice the whole tune through, we're always practicing the A part three times as much as the B part. And if we practice a tune and always have to slow down because we stumble on a hard part, we're just reinforcing that wrong dynamic and our brain remembers and recreates that slowing down every time. Instead we should practice at a slow enough speed to play the whole tune at the same tempo and gradually increase it.
(Sorry about the lack of paragraph and quote punctuation.)
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There are some musicians who are always practicing. They just never put down the instrument if they can avoid it. So sometimes they practice with the tv on.
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All I'm saying is to take a look at what "muscle memory" really is. It's still a brain process. I'm not playing semantics here again, I'm drawing attention to what the phenomenon really is.
We always talk about not having enough time to practice...what I'm suggesting is that if the ultimate goal is to have synapses fire on "auto pilot", deliberate practice will get you to that point quicker than mindless practice...that's all, because that's what "muscle memory" is.
Truthfully, I have to look at what I actually play when I'm in the moment...going back to a recording, I hear all kinds of ideas that repeat themselves...some of them are things I noodled with for months that eventually found their way into my subconscious, where they can be recalled on the fly...other ideas are ones I really worked at consciously, and maybe in only a hour or so, the synapses already fire automaticallyfor me to be able to pull them off.
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I think we have to balance "mindless noodling" with "deliberate practice." Listening back to me sometimes I hear things I play I don't recall ever working on, although I'm sure I did in some way. Jazz, to me, is a balance of the deliberate and the mindless. Noodling time is crucial. What's at play is the unconscious. This is what's playing the guitar. That's why you can tune out and end up playing some remarkable stuff. But if you steadfastly stand in the way, being deliberate in everything you play, you might just miss those more sublime moments. At least this applies to me.
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I agree...I think we're on two different ideas here...I'm only talking about the quickest way to ingest something in practice...I'm talking about concrete ideas, like a scale position or a string of particular chord voicings...
Jazz is all about being in the moment, and those countless hours we all spend running changes over a tune are crucial too.
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FWIW, I read that it takes 400-500 reps to ingrain a new pattern into muscle memory.
So if it took 5 seconds, say, to play a new scale or lick that's 30-45 minutes of straight repetition.
Sound reasonable?
Bill
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How involved is the thought process? 400 to 500 times mindlessly, or 400-500 times with full concentration? I think there would be a difference.
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"A new pattern" is overly broad. There are plenty of simple patterns that can be mastered in 1 rep. Originally Posted by boatheelmusic
There is a diminishing return on practice repetitions, and my guess is that most people over-practice familiar material at the expense of learning something new.
"Perfect is the enemy of good."
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No it is not. If you can type forum messages without looking at the typewriter keys, you have a muscle memory of where all the keys are on your keyboard. You don't think about where the keys are, you just think about what you want to type. People who keep looking at they keys never type as well as though who learned to type without looking. Same with guitar---you don't help yourself by watching your hands play. It actually makes it harder. Your fingers know where the notes are. (<<<Beginners have to learn this, of course.) Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Deliberate practice doesn't have to include looking at your hands...how does one practice sight reading, for example?
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Right. This is the at-large sense of it, like knowing where all the keys are on your keyboard without looking at them, or the numbers on a calculator. Originally Posted by Solo Flight
In the individual-memory sense (-a muscle memory for, say, the "Cry Me A River" lick) is different. Someone here mentions 400-500 repetitions being needed, but much of the literature suggests 3,000-5,000. Those latter numbers seem high to me.
Looking at this from the other end, though, why do people KEEP playing scales? Say you've played a C major scale 5,000 times, going back to when you first started playing guitar and that was the only scale you knew. If anything is ingrained in your muscle memory, that should be. So why KEEP playing scales? (I'm not talking about learning a new one, such as harmonic minor if you're coming from a rock background and never even heard of it, much less played it before.) What is the goal there?
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I think it's because muscle memory is not necessarily permanent.
A few years ago, I bought a bike, after having not really ridden one since high school. You know what? Riding a bike is not like riding a bike
Again, this is because muscle memory is actually a brain activity...so if you think of synapses as a switchboard...if you keep a line plugged in it will continue to work smoothly...but if you neglect a line or make a new line, perhaps you need to re route a few wires...which might mean if you go back to that original connection, it's not there anymore, and you need to find a new way to connect the lines...
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Yes. "Muscle memory" is mental activity. The hand doesn't remember a thing. It's not the hand that remembers the ATM code. It's a mental pattern you've ingested.
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It is interesting to consider muscle memory--or deeply ingrained physical patterns, if you prefer--in terms of improvisation. Bad improvising often reeks of patternistic playing. Often the goal of practice is to break away from these patterns.
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I think everything that comes up "in the moment" is a pattern of some sort...the thing that separates the good players from the others is how they can recombine the info that comes up "on the fly."
Also, from my experience, it's not fully formed phrases that pop up when I'm actually playing well...it's more of an overall shape of a line, or rather, a few notes that sort of form the touchstones, or highlights, of the line...then it's up to me to connect them interestingly...when I'm actually playing well, this happens on the fly...when I'm not playing as well, it takes the form of patterns and licks I've played before...
I mean, think about it...there's 12 notes...very little, if any, of what we play has never been done before...all we do is recombine information...the great players can make you hear something new in something old...that's both a tangible and intangible skill...
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Not necessarily true. John Coltrane was a pattern player. And I don't know. He was pretty good. Originally Posted by Jonzo
I've never been a pattern player, but I often wish I had been more of one. Most of my musical buddies are, or have been - started out that way, and are ridiculous players. I've been doing an awful lot of Coltrane transcriptions again lately. They get your fingers in the right place over the rhythmic and harmonic landscape pretty well.
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I agree with Jeff when it comes to practicing with full concentration as opposed to "mindless noodling in front of the tv"...my development as a player is accelerated by fully concentrating and memorizing the notes of what I am doing. My example is learning the Bach Lute Suites. I have been practicing and learning them for two years now and some pieces I have "muscle"memory of but most I am still reading and trying to memorize...I know it is different than improvising but the parts I can't play very well it is often because I don't know the notes that are written or my concentration lapses. In my jazz playing those sublime moments of pure ecstasy always go away as soon as I notice them...I am always searching for that sweet spot of relaxed concentration. And this can be practiced all of the time not just with a guitar in hand I believe it is one of the key elements of great jazz playing.
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I wasn't making an absolute anti-pattern statement--just pointing out that they can be used for good or evil.
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Yeah, I get that. Like if you're ill (or called away from home for some other family emergency) and don't play at all for a spell, you can really tell the difference. However, you can get those chops *back* a lot faster than you developed them originally. (Some people finish a long tour and set their guitar aside for a month or more and they're rusty when they pick it back up but that rust is easily removed with practice.) Muscle memory may not be permanent but it doesn't altogether go away either. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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There is a lot of research indicating that reviewing "forgotten" information makes stronger memories than reviewing "remembered" information.
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That's for sure. I remember the first time I saw a transcription of his "Giant Steps" solo: pattern city! And he used the same pattern a lot! Bert Ligon says that Clifford Brown---another phenomenal player---used the same outline (3217) over every change in the chorus of a solo and it sounded great. (I should email him and ask which record that is on; I'd like to hear it, though there's a good chance I already have and just didn't realize it! Maybe he gives the title in his book "Connecting Chords..." Originally Posted by henryrobinett
Of course, Clifford and Coltrane else had great tone, feel, dynamics, swing, all those other things that can make something conceptually simple sound incredible.
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Good point. I agree with that. However, I recently got a collection of lines that are on a page of mss paper and I play them all daily. Some came easily (-I assume they were most like things I already knew) but others really gave me fits. I actually play those MORE than the others, and mindfully as I can, but the next day they may trip me up again. These are short things, such as ii-V-I lines, not whole tunes too. A gap in my technique, I suppose. They'll come. Sometimes I know why a line is hard for me---I just haven't played anything like it before--but other times I struggle to understand why I have the trouble I do with a line. It's why they call it practice, eh? Originally Posted by Solo Flight
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I find that the licks I actually like, are the ones that come most easily. Co-incidence - I think not. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Not a coincidence and not so mysterious. I think everyone tends to play the stuff they like more than the stuff they don't like. I'm as guilty of this as the next one. It's only natural. But it only results in precious practice time being (mis)spent on things you already know. Which is why I've heard from more than one teacher/pro that you should not start off a practice session with the familiar stuff that you like to play but force yourself instead to start with the unfamiliar and harder things so if time runs out, at least you've practiced what you need to instead of the fun easy stuff.
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