Jazz Guitar Exercises That Are a Waste of Time?

**mr. beaumont** · 12-10-2012, 04:48 PM

I take everything in every interview with a grain of salt...people love soundbytes...and to twist them. Like the "Charlie Parker" quote (or whoever it gets attributed to, basically, whover is getting elevated to "god like" status at the moment) "Forget all that (stuff) and play."

People always forget to quote the first part of it, you know, the part about "mastering your instrument."

**MarkRhodes** · 12-10-2012, 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by Dana

If you can point me to that Howard Roberts quote I'd appreciate it.

Can't help you there. Something I read years ago, maybe in one his "Guitar Player" columns. Perhaps someone else remembers it too and will have a reference for you.

**randalljazz** · 12-10-2012, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by Dana

Practicing/Playing with the TV on = Biggest waste of time

Fun? Oh yes!

Making progress on the instrument? I don't think so.

itzhak perlman likes to practice scales watching baseball with the sound off (but he's just a fiddler--what would he know?!)...

**Dana** · 12-10-2012, 05:00 PM

But he probably knew them already. He wasn't trying to learn them initially. I doubt he had the TV on when learning the Bach Partita's for an upcoming concert.

Do you have a direct reference to this? Otherwise it's just gossip.

**randalljazz** · 12-10-2012, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by Dana

But he probably knew them already. He wasn't trying to learn them initially. I doubt he had the TV on when learning the Bach Partita's for an upcoming concert.

Do you have a direct reference to this? Otherwise it's just gossip.

i'm sure he already knew them! it was an interview...maybe 60 minutes, something like that. or, you know, maybe i'm just making it up to muddy the water.

**djangoles** · 12-10-2012, 05:09 PM

I know Danny Gatton says in one of his instructional videos that he developed his super fast banjo rolls by sitting in front of the TV. In fact he says something to the effect of "this mindless type of exercise is great when you're sitting in front of the TV". Me on the other hand, if it is on, the sound is down.

**Franklin52** · 12-10-2012, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by Dana

If you can point me to that Howard Roberts quote I'd appreciate it.

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

Can't help you there. Something I read years ago, maybe in one his "Guitar Player" columns. Perhaps someone else remembers it too and will have a reference for you.

On page 16 of Superchops:

B. Guitar players are inveterate noodlers, and I think that a very effective type of learning takes place while watching television and noodling. Do it when you feel like it.

**Dana** · 12-10-2012, 05:28 PM

Thanks for posting that. I'll have to try and find a copy.

So, basically he advocates all practice can be done while watching TV?

Personally I think it's a bad habit, and disconnects the brain/ear from the fingers. I'm happy to be in the minority.

**docbop** · 12-10-2012, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by Dana

So, basically he advocates all practice can be done while watching TV?

No Howard just talk about it as a way to keep your fingers moving and also some ET trying to figure out songs on shows or commercials before the song ended. So a way to relax and still do something music related.

**mr. beaumont** · 12-10-2012, 05:39 PM

As an aside, I teach a lot of beginners and I do advocate for them to simply have the guitar with them as much as possible...watching tv? Have a guitar on your lap. Waiting for water to boil? Have a guitar around...the idea is to have the instrument feel natural to you, not like a foreign object...

But I also teach beginners that true practice time is for practice...

**MarkRhodes** · 12-10-2012, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by Franklin52

On page 16 of Superchops:

Thanks, Franklin! I knew I'd read that somewhere, I just couldn't place the source. Glad you could.

**MarkRhodes** · 12-10-2012, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by djangoles

I know Danny Gatton says in one of his instructional videos that he developed his super fast banjo rolls by sitting in front of the TV. In fact he says something to the effect of "this mindless type of exercise is great when you're sitting in front of the TV".

I wonder if there are two things going on here. One, obviously, is the repetition of material and the other may be playing without tension. (The television keeps you from getting anxious about what you're playing.)

**MarkRhodes** · 12-10-2012, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Separately I wanted to also add that excessive scales or technical work may seem wasteful at the middle stages of learning, but one realizes that all roads eventually lead to Rome...

I've never been sure what "Rome" is when this phrase is used about learning to play jazz. The Romans built roads from Rome outward, so if you found yourself on one while far from Rome, you could follow that road back to its origin, Rome.

But what is "Rome" in the jazz context? Knowing hundreds of tunes? Burning? Making a living from jazz? Gigging steadily? Getting a record deal? Getting a teaching gig? All of those, some of those, none of those?

To my mind (and for my money) some teachers / authors of method books do not seem to know how to get to Rome themselves, much less guide me there!

**djangoles** · 12-10-2012, 06:10 PM

@:50

**Dana** · 12-10-2012, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

To my mind (and for my money) some teachers / authors of method books do not seem to know how to get to Rome themselves, much less guide me there!

I agree.

**fep** · 12-10-2012, 06:21 PM

Here's an excerpt from an acticle by Howard Roberts:

There are two kinds of memory involved in the learning process, motor memory and data memory. Your motor memory is the training of the physical or motor skills and your data memory is the memorizing of conceptual data. If you are training motor skills, you can practice for many long hours without doing any harm. The more of this kind of repetition the better. In fact, much of this kind of learning can be accomplished unconsciously. A person can achieve wonders while mindlessly staring at the television, playing or doodling for hours, even with the sound on.

With data memory (memorizing scales, fingering patterns, licks, songs, harmony etc.), you must work within very short time frames, making sure you do not exceed your attention span. Bear in mind that your attention span will vary from day to day, and may be as short as five, ten or fifteen minutes at any one sitting. The signal that you have come to the end of your natural attention span, may be anything from staring at the wall, to thinking about your vacation, to playing that little old blues lick you have known since you were seven. In this case, your unconscious mind is telling you, "you're done, you're full, and you've had enough for now." This is perfectly natural. So take a short break. It's no big deal. You'll recover quickly and you can continue on effectively.

Remember, then, that there are two completely different aspects to gaining musical control of the instrument. First, learn by mental rehearsal, visualization and recalling it from memory. Second (though no less important), develop and train your motor skills through repetition. Don't fall into the trap of confusing these two different types of learning by spending hours working without concentration trying to acquire conceptual data (data memory). Also, don't be fooled into thinking that there is a short cut to acquiring motor skills.

**Dana** · 12-10-2012, 06:28 PM

Not sure if I agree with the motor memory part.

Here's a video from Hal Galper where he says technique is in the brain, not in the hands.

**henryrobinett** · 12-10-2012, 06:41 PM

Brain, the hands - virtually the same thing. The brain plays the hand. But the hand needs to be trained to cooperate.

**MarkRhodes** · 12-10-2012, 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

Brain, the hands - virtually the same thing. The brain plays the hand. But the hand needs to be trained to cooperate.

This is a fascinating subject. The connections between the brain and the hands are legion. I think this is one reason some elderly people in the early stages of Alzheimer's do themselves a world of good by working with their hands,, whether it be quilting or playing music, anything that requires the hands to make a lot of precise movements. It keeps the fingers nimble but it also keeps the brain busy in a good way.

When Galper talks about technique being in the brain, I think he is assuming a large amount of hands-on-the-instrument time. (He is talking to people who, though young, have already been playing piano seriously for a decade or more.)

**MarkRhodes** · 12-10-2012, 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Generally anything that couldn't be used in an actual musical situation, but a question like this isn't really something that has a blanket answer that fits everyone's progress.

I think the first part of this is the best general advice on what to practice. Obviously, if you're a beginner you've got to learn where the notes are, how to make chords, how to keep time, that sort of thing, but when you've learned that stuff you don't have to keep practicing it.

Herb Ellis had another good piece of advice about practicing: do the non-fun thing first. (The thing you know you need to work on but aren't good at yet.) If you do the fun stuff first, you'll never get around to what you need to work on.

**coolvinny** · 12-10-2012, 07:58 PM

..........

**JensL** · 12-11-2012, 04:14 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

As an aside, I teach a lot of beginners and I do advocate for them to simply have the guitar with them as much as possible...watching tv? Have a guitar on your lap. Waiting for water to boil? Have a guitar around...the idea is to have the instrument feel natural to you, not like a foreign object...

But I also teach beginners that true practice time is for practice...

Hm.. never thought of that. I might recommend that too, since I do that myself very often

Thanks!

Jens

**Little Jay** · 12-11-2012, 06:54 AM

Originally Posted by JensL

Hm.. never thought of that. I might recommend that too, since I do that myself very often

Thanks!

Jens

For that purpose I use my travel/silent guitar (it's small and light) that I can play anywhere in the house, except for in the shower

Since I started studying at a part-time conservatory I need to practise more, but with a fulltime job and a family that's pretty hard. But with the travel guitar always within reach I can study some 3 minutes here, 5 minutes there, in front of the TV, next to my wife on the couch, etc. It works! And I am much more focussed and the time is spent much more efficient. If I have some hours in a row to study, I notice that a lot of time is lost 'noodling'.

**kris** · 12-11-2012, 07:28 AM

"REMEMBER,it is more important to play it correctly at a comfortable tempo than very fast while making a lot of mistakes.The speed will come gradually."
Jack Grassel

**JensL** · 12-11-2012, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by Little Jay

For that purpose I use my travel/silent guitar (it's small and light) that I can play anywhere in the house, except for in the shower

Since I started studying at a part-time conservatory I need to practise more, but with a fulltime job and a family that's pretty hard. But with the travel guitar always within reach I can study some 3 minutes here, 5 minutes there, in front of the TV, next to my wife on the couch, etc. It works! And I am much more focussed and the time is spent much more efficient. If I have some hours in a row to study, I notice that a lot of time is lost 'noodling'.

Noodling is not necessarily bad, depends on how you do it.
I understand the time problem all too well though

To me some essential skills can not be practiced without that being the only thing I focus on though, but that differs from person to person I guess.

Jens