Modes and Major Scales

**boatheelmusic** · 12-06-2012, 04:07 PM

So I got to thinking about this, and realized that one can merely play the appropriate Major scale to achieve any mode.

For example, an F Major scale can be used to achieve C Mixolydian, a G Major scale can be used to reach C Lydian, etc.

From there, I constructed the attached chart: (see attachment)

Where the intersection of note and mode indicates the Major scale to be played as wished. No "mode" fingerings to learn, just the well worn Major scale played in the desired spot. Scales aren't mostly played in sequence, anyway, and if you think about a scale as an appropriate "pool of notes" you're all set.

Of course, C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian and B Locrian can all be played using the C Major scale.

Next step - to substitute Roman Numerals to generalize chart, but this is the idea.

Comments?

Thanks,

Bill

**mr. beaumont** · 12-06-2012, 05:48 PM

This is fine for visualization, but you still need to know the modes' characteristic pitches to make them work...

In other words, playing your old C major licks over a D minor chord isn't necessarily going to sound very "Dorian."

**boatheelmusic** · 12-06-2012, 05:52 PM

Right, but for my money playing scales in order doesn't sound too jazzy.

Is that what you're suggesting?

Thanks,

**mr. beaumont** · 12-06-2012, 06:05 PM

No, not at all...I'm suggesting you need to know the characteristic pitches of modes--the notes that define why they sound unique, and if you want to use a modal sound, that's how you're going to get it.

**boatheelmusic** · 12-06-2012, 06:11 PM

Thanks, Mr. B.

So in your example of Cmaj over Dm7, what notes would those be?

**JanLF** · 12-06-2012, 06:24 PM

Hi!

I thought I jump in. The notes that defines a Dm7 chord would be the chord tones D, F, A and C. These notes will make it sound like any m7 chord, 1, b3, 5 and b7. To make it sound dorian one must include the color/tension note B that makes it a dorian m7 chord- a m7 chord with major 6. All the modes have certain notes that with their relationship to the chord tones and the root makes them differ from other modes.

Jan

Jan

**ColinO** · 12-06-2012, 06:28 PM

I kind of did that to start with and eventually started thinking D dorian rather than C major and it makes a difference. You really don't want to be thinking "C" when the chord is "Dm" because it's hard to think of chord tones(for example) for Dm7 when you're playing a C major scale.

**Vladan** · 12-06-2012, 07:32 PM

if I may,.
While it's true C major scale will fit over all of dm7-G7-CM7, jazzzers seam to think it won'sound lke jazz unless playing correct mode of it over correct chord, despite it's same 7 notes all the time.
I'm not jazzer, and what I know is, if I just play C major scale over 3 mentioned progression, I often manage not to hit any wrong notes, but I never manage it to sound jazz.
If I thik about sounding jazzy, while playing, I manage from time to time.
So I concluded, what jazzers want to say is: if you can not think jazz, with ease, think modes, that's as close as you can get to the real thing.
Eventually, modes will get into subcocious, from which moment you'll beable to think jazz, for real.
Something like that.
Applicable only in this particular mode - this thread.

**mr. beaumont** · 12-06-2012, 07:47 PM

Also not what I'm talking about.

If you play dorian, mixolydian, ionian over a simple ii V I, you're crazy.

**boatheelmusic** · 12-06-2012, 07:55 PM

Mr. B, you're right - in a simple 251, just play the major scale, or ARPS to the chords.

The "B" (6th) previously mentioned is nicely included in the C major scale, as well as the chord tones and an E(9th), and a G (11th, but fine in a ii7).

So, back to my OP, I haven't heard anything yet to convince me it's an inefficient or inappropriate approach.

More takers?

Thanks,

Bill

**mr. beaumont** · 12-06-2012, 09:09 PM

It's a fine approach...again...for visualization. But you'll need to actually understand the mode if you want to do anything with it...your old C major standby runs won't work over So What...all notes in a scale are not of equal value...and the Important ones in C major are not the important ones in D Dorian.

**Patrick2** · 12-06-2012, 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by JanLF

Hi!

I thought I jump in. The notes that defines a Dm7 chord would be the chord tones D, F, A and C. These notes will make it sound like any m7 chord, 1, b3, 5 and b7. To make it sound dorian one must include the color/tension note B that makes it a dorian m7 chord- a m7 chord with major 6. All the modes have certain notes that with their relationship to the chord tones and the root makes them differ from other modes.

Jan

Jan

YEP!! This is where it's at . . for me. Intervals and tensions.

**jayx123** · 12-07-2012, 02:50 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Also not what I'm talking about.

If you play dorian, mixolydian, ionian over a simple ii V I, you're crazy.

+1

play the major scale and emphasize the chord tones in your lines.

**Vladan** · 12-07-2012, 03:38 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

... If you play dorian, mixolydian, ionian over a simple ii V I, you're crazy.

@ Mr. Beaumont
Cool. I'll copy this thread and shove (PI) it to my shrink. He may ease on medication, now, I can prove I'm not crazy, since I do not play modes.

@General public
Couple of questions:
1. when you hear/ read advice,"in jazz, minor7 is regarded as being iim7, so play dorian over it", similar for V7 - mixolidian, and so on, where would you aply such an advice? We already learned from this thread ii-V-I is not the place.

2. Since ii-V-I is always represented as essence of Jazz, it's advised to look for the pattern within a tune, so to play over it (prepared licks and variations?), is there enough room left for applying modes, to justify such huge talk, they receive? Of course, in regard to this thread, where we learned ii-V-I is not the place for modes, so to say.

**boatheelmusic** · 12-07-2012, 05:27 AM

Exactly - the place to use modes, I think, is when the tune moves outside 251. In that case, the chart I originally attached allows one to use a "displaced" major scale to deal with it, without excessive need to memorize other fingerings. In a 251, think about modes seems like a waste of time.

The only other scale you really need (and Emily Remler agrees) is the Melodic Minor, for Lydian Dominant or Altered situations.

Just my struggling to make all this enjoyable and as simple as possible!

**Vladan** · 12-07-2012, 05:50 AM

Ok, that bring's me back to a recent thread of E7 within tune in C. According to the chart, that E7 is to be covered by Amajor scale, while common sense says its some kind of A minor, harmonic being the first choice.
If the "out" chord, somewhere in C tune would be Db7, would the propper scale be Gb Major, or something else, in that C environment?

**boatheelmusic** · 12-07-2012, 06:10 AM

Interesting - if E Mixolydian is what you're after, the A Major scale contains the chord tones of E, G#, B and D for the E7.

In addition, it contains an F# (9th), an A (11th) and a C# (13th).

I think it should work great, as long as you don't hold the A (11th) too long.

Please try it out in your tune and let us know!

Thanks,

**boatheelmusic** · 12-07-2012, 06:12 AM

And yes, it seems that the Gb major scale might be the right choice in your second example.

Just trying to get all mileage out of the time invested in major scale fingerings!

**randalljazz** · 12-07-2012, 06:58 AM

gross oversimplification, of course...

modes are good over long static harmony. sweet georgia brown, for example, has 5 four measure sections of a V7. mixolydian ideas will work well here. so what and impressions have 16 and 8 measure sections of minor 7th chords. dorian mode is a good jumping off point.

for a 'jazzy' sound over moving harmony, hit the guide tones across the chord change. for Dmi7-G7-C6

| F...C | B...F | E...(A, or whatever) ||

embellish with chromatic or diatonic neighbor tones, etc.

study the solos of (your favorite jazz legend here). that's what they all did.

**Vladan** · 12-07-2012, 07:24 AM

Originally Posted by boatheelmusic

Interesting - if E Mixolydian is what you're after, the A Major scale contains the chord tones of E, G#, B and D for the E7.

In addition, it contains an F# (9th), an A (11th) and a C# (13th).

I think it should work great, as long as you don't hold the A (11th) too long.

Please try it out in your tune and let us know!

Thanks,

You think? Have you tried it?

I'm not after E mixolydian. I'm after what to play over E7 in C major tune.
Theory says over dominant chord, play mixolydian scale. We all know mixolydian has same notes as major 5th below (or 4th up), you made nice table of it. Thank you.

You say you think F#, C# and A would work great, do you mean "they'd work great over E7", or you think "they'd work great over E7 in Cmajor tune", or you think it doesn't matter what key tune is, as long as mixolydian is played over dominant?

In tunes that go am7 - E7, I could say I use Amaj scale (although I do not, I just play arround with chord extentiones, chromatisms and approaches).
However, it does not sound like something one'd call tune in C, it sound's like a kind of Aminor blues, or something.
In resolving from C to E7, I could use C# and G#, even f#, but again, I'd never think of it as playing A major.

@randalljazz
to me, that makes sense.

**boatheelmusic** · 12-07-2012, 07:51 AM

A Dominant 7 chord only exists as such in one scale - Dominant 7th in the A major scale is E7, and that's why this works, I think.

**boatheelmusic** · 12-07-2012, 07:52 AM

And, when you see that E7 in a C major tune, you've temporarily stepped into the key of A. So play the appropriate major scale over it!

**Vladan** · 12-07-2012, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by boatheelmusic

A Dominant 7 chord only exists as such in one scale - Dominant 7th in the A major scale is E7, and that's why this works, I think.

Actually, E7 exists in at least 2 more, A harmonic and melodic minor, if existance within a scale is a way to go?

**GuyBoden** · 12-07-2012, 08:11 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

If you play dorian, mixolydian, ionian over a simple ii V I, you're crazy.

Yes viewers beware, playing dorian, mixolydian and ionian over a simple ii V I, has on occasions evolved into musicians experimenting with playing D Melodic minor, Db Altered and C Harmonic Major over a simple ii V I in C major and even more abstract experiments.

I've witnessed this in Europe with my own ears.

Beware

Guy

**mr. beaumont** · 12-07-2012, 08:45 AM

Guy, although I feel you're kidding a bit, I'd argue if a beginner starts thinking that way he'll be frustrated and done with jazz before he ever finds out what a melodic minor scale is...

I feel like I'm hitting a wall here...like I said, understanding derivative modes is great...no new scale patterns to learn. All I am saying is using C major ideas over the first 16 of "so what," for example, isn't going to sound very good.

You can't let theory dictate what you play. Your ears will tell you that not all notes in a scale have equal "weight" over a set of chord changes. If you can't hear that yet, I say put the modes away until you can.

I'm very concerned about the recent threads about "what scale to play over" whatever threads...it seems like a lot of new players are getting too wrapped up in the academic side of jazz...and not making music.