Modes and Major Scales

[Vladan]

Mr, B., i totaly agree with you.

What I was after...

If you play tune in C, when you come to G7, ther's no point to think'oh, this is for mixolydian, but I'll use fingering of C major.' You're already using it.
If it's tune's in Eb, on G7, I think it's realy counterintuitive to bring in C, only to play familiar fingerings.
If it's G7 for 8 bars, it loses dominant function, becoming sort off I chord, something to jam over, so I'll surely see it as tune in G, and won't play it thinkig C fingerring, because it'll sound C.

[jayx123]

In this context (scale/modes/key centers, not chord tones, that's obvious) what about the 3 dominants of the blues? the dominants are clearly not static.

[Vladan]

For basic Major blues, what I always play, like base to addon, in all 3 chors
is mix of (although I don't look at it that way, it's just blues for me):

1. major pentatonic with addition of b3, b7 and 7
2. relative minor pentatonic + b5, 7
3. Paralel minor pentatonic + b5, 6, 7, 9

So I move that btw positions suitable for 3 dominat chords, conect them as it comes, ..., I also play Dorian thing and whatever, but above contains majority of it. Pretty basic stuff. I'm not virtuoso, or theory guru of any kind.

And to add: I always think as if I play in root of the chord, so to say. So if I play 1. from above, in A for example than switch to 2 (F#), I still think I play A, I never think playing F# min over A, although, effectively, I play those notes.

Another addition, I really never thought about it before, in above 3, only one missing note, out of 12, is b2 (b9), and I know for sure I play it from time to time. So, it looks like our colleague (Mr. B.?) is quite right when he say: It's just 12 notes, organize them somhow and play, don't make much fuss about it.

[eddy b.]

To understand the "sound" of the modes I believe they need to be compared to on another so the differences can be heard. While it is true that the notes in D dorian are the same as C Ionian what makes the Dorian Sound is that it is a minor scale with a natural 6th scale degree(the B natural in D dorian) Compare that sound with D aeolian and all of the notes are the same except for the 6th degree which is Bb in D aeolian. The chart you made is good. But the point of modal music is to accentuate the notes in each mode that create the sound of that mode. To do this play all of the modes starting on the same note. D ionian, D dorian, D phyrgian etc. Then compare the Minor Modes to each other and the Major modes with each other then you will begin to understand the "characteristic sound" of each mode. It isn't supposed to be easy. But it is worth your time and attention.

[mr. beaumont]

To understand the "sound" of the modes I believe they need to be compared to on another so the differences can be heard. While it is true that the notes in D dorian are the same as C Ionian what makes the Dorian Sound is that it is a minor scale with a natural 6th scale degree(the B natural in D dorian) Compare that sound with D aeolian and all of the notes are the same except for the 6th degree which is Bb in D aeolian. The chart you made is good. But the point of modal music is to accentuate the notes in each mode that create the sound of that mode. To do this play all of the modes starting on the same note. D ionian, D dorian, D phyrgian etc. Then compare the Minor Modes to each other and the Major modes with each other then you will begin to understand the "characteristic sound" of each mode. It isn't supposed to be easy. But it is worth your time and attention.

This!

[Patrick2]

To understand the "sound" of the modes I believe they need to be compared to on another so the differences can be heard. While it is true that the notes in D dorian are the same as C Ionian what makes the Dorian Sound is that it is a minor scale with a natural 6th scale degree(the B natural in D dorian) Compare that sound with D aeolian and all of the notes are the same except for the 6th degree which is Bb in D aeolian. The chart you made is good. But the point of modal music is to accentuate the notes in each mode that create the sound of that mode. To do this play all of the modes starting on the same note. D ionian, D dorian, D phyrgian etc. Then compare the Minor Modes to each other and the Major modes with each other then you will begin to understand the "characteristic sound" of each mode. It isn't supposed to be easy. But it is worth your time and attention.

Agreed! I'm a pretty good example of something similar to what the OP posted. For quite a long time, I continuously questioned Vinny Corrao on . . . "what's the big deal with modes? If I'm playing the correct scale tones, using the appropriate tensions & lead note and passing notes . . I'm always going to be correct . . right??". He alway said . . "yeah . . you'll be correct . . but you ain't gonna sound to hip".

Then a different (and current) jazz guitar instructor had me do a similar study to what eddy b mentioned above. The sky opened up for me!!!

[mr. beaumont]

Yeah...I think it's so important to understand (and I think this gets lost in trying to learn jazz on the internet--there's so much BAD CST info out there...it's really discouraging...rock players making videos in their bedroom thinking that they're teaching jazz) that not every note in a scale has equal "weight."

[Patrick2]

Yeah...I think it's so important to understand (and I think this gets lost in trying to learn jazz on the internet--there's so much BAD CST info out there...it's really discouraging...rock players making videos in their bedroom thinking that they're teaching jazz) that not every note in a scale has equal "weight."

I would be in TOTAL agrement with this, if I knew what CST meant. LOLOL

But, this too represents all that wrong with "shredding" in the context of a jazz guitar improv. Some do it well . . . while other just feel like all they need to do is hit all the correct notes . . . with no focus on the "sweet" ones.

[Vladan]

guess cst is chord scale theory.

I'm glad my point of sounding jazz, from my first post in this thread finaly came through, although (re)named to 'hip'. Pitty I chose wrong example (251).

[mr. beaumont]

I would be in TOTAL agrement with this, if I knew what CST meant. LOLOL

But, this too represents all that wrong with "shredding" in the context of a jazz guitar improv. Some do it well . . . while other just feel like all they need to do is hit all the correct notes . . . with no focus on the "sweet" ones.

CST=Chord Scale Theory

Kinda was the rage once jazz was academicised (is that a word?) and there's been some blowback against it, Hal Galper and such...I don't think the idea is flawed, but I do think some people learn 1/100th of what it entails and then suddenly they feel qualified to teach it. To me, it's one part of a balanced diet...if you're not familiar with the concept, it basically assigns a scale to each chord or group of chords as a basis for improvising. Some people think that's enough...it's not.

Improvising, as a whole, is not really method based. The background information you need to improvise can be, though. In the end, you drill sounds into your brain by running changes, listening to a ton of jazz, and practicing...and eventually what you really know can come out when you play...and when you really know it, you can use it to make a melodic statement, not just to "get through" the changes.

[JanLF]

Hi again, if one relate C major as being D dorian, that's not true. Yes it's the same notes - as we all know, but on a Dm7 chord C will sound like the b7, E will sound like the 9th and G will sound like the 11th - period. They will want to resolve somewhere - yes to the chord tones of Dm7. Can you play that anyway though, yes of course. If there's play a long vamp of any chord, you have to start hearing the tension and release that happens between the chord tones and the other notes in the scale or any notes for that matter. 16 bars of G7 is not C major.

my 2 cents

[idashine]

Hi Bill,
I can certainly understand the guitar player visualizing the notes he has to learn and making generalizations as in this case.
If you've ever looked at the book by George Russell ' Lydian Chromatic Concept' you'd know what I mean when I say that learning names of things is not the key to getting it down in practice.
But the examples in his book as well as the music of great jazz artists can make the biggest difference in your playing if you use your approach to gain access to their lines.
So yes - relate to one scale as opposed to 7 modes if that helps you get around but make sure you connect it in what ever musical way be it Jazz, Rock or whatever.

[boatheelmusic]

Thanks, all.

Some of these explanations seem to border on the mystic. Good taste, of course, is tres important.

But still, if I play the "pools of notes" from, for example, the D Major, C Major and G Major scales, I've just played in E Dorian, E Phrygian and E Aeolian modes. And needed no fingerings beyond the major scales.

The notes in each of these scales are identical to the notes in those modes, and I for one don't play them in scale order.

Not to be disrespectful, but unless I'm missing something......

[mr. beaumont]

Again, you've got the visualization part down. Now you just need to look at the characteristic pitches and intervals of the modes so you can understand what makes them unique.

For example, playing something that sounds "E Phrygian" is more than just playing notes from the C major scale over an "E" sound...the notes have shifted in importance...the E to F interval will be something to highlight, for example, whereas if you were playing a C major sound, the E to F interval wouldn't be as cool sounding...

[boatheelmusic]

Cool -

I really like the thought of using the major scales for efficiency, and focusing on the (new) chord tones and others within for musicality!

Allows total focus on the music, rather than the fingerings.

Bill

[ColinO]

I'm starting to think of it like this - if there is a Cmaj chord being played, then you can play all of the notes of the Cmajor scale, that's true. However, if you think of those notes in terms of the chords that they are a part of, and the notes that they are played in relation to, then they will effect the harmony differently. For example, over a CMaj7 chord, you can play the following arpeggios:

CMaj7, Dm7, Em7, FMaj7,G7,Am7, Bm7b5.

The notes of the CMaj scale make up all of those arpeggios and so you could play any of them in any order and still be playing in the CMaj scale and so all of them would be "right". However, it would sould more right if you played them in some order such as Dm7, G7, Cmaj7 for example.

On the other hand, if the chord is a Dm7, again you could play all of those arpeggios mentioned above, because D dorian would contain those same notes and they would be "right". However the order in which you might want to play the apeggios and which arpeggios you might want to chose and which notes you would want to emphasize, might be different than if the chord was CMaj7.

Would someone smarter than me tell me if I'm on the right track?

[Vladan]

the first trick is to play it from the root note of the moment and to hear when it want's to resolve back to that root (not to the root of a basic scale, one it is a mode of). You should have all the mode's sounds internalized same as the basic major scale.

[Vladan]

... notes and they would be "right". However the order in which you might want to play the apeggios and which arpeggios you might want to chose and which notes you would want to emphasize, might be different than if the chord was CMaj7.

Again, someone more Jazz will chime in, but I'll give you one example.

Curreently, as already mentioned smewhere, I'm butchering Oh Yeah, on the radio (Roxy Music).

All the time original melody is playable, without alterations.

Originaly, verse goes | G| C| G| C| G| C| G| C||.
First I made it GM7| CM7 ...., and played walking bass over it, Ok, not played, but I drew it in cubase.
Than, I substituted chords, without changing bass, now verse goes like this in Ska rhythm 160bpm:
|bm(7)| am(7)| GM7/F#| f#m7b5| em(7)| am(7)| bm(7) CM9| am(7)||

When I was to solo over it, I could not start and play that first bar from bm "just like that". I could play bm just that much, as it is a 3rd mode of G maj, whatever the name is. In order to be blues I brought in b5 (b7 in G) and so on ...
At the same time, I could play from G, all the time, without any problem

And...?
I play almost exactly the same notes, once I start from note b as 3rd of a G, and it sounds Rockabilly. Next time I ply the same from b as 1st of bmin, and it sounds Jazzy.

Go figure?!

[mr. beaumont]

I'm starting to think of it like this - if there is a Cmaj chord being played, then you can play all of the notes of the Cmajor scale, that's true. However, if you think of those notes in terms of the chords that they are a part of, and the notes that they are played in relation to, then they will effect the harmony differently. For example, over a CMaj7 chord, you can play the following arpeggios:

CMaj7, Dm7, Em7, FMaj7,G7,Am7, Bm7b5.

The notes of the CMaj scale make up all of those arpeggios and so you could play any of them in any order and still be playing in the CMaj scale and so all of them would be "right". However, it would sould more right if you played them in some order such as Dm7, G7, Cmaj7 for example.

On the other hand, if the chord is a Dm7, again you could play all of those arpeggios mentioned above, because D dorian would contain those same notes and they would be "right". However the order in which you might want to play the apeggios and which arpeggios you might want to chose and which notes you would want to emphasize, might be different than if the chord was CMaj7.

Would someone smarter than me tell me if I'm on the right track?

Yeah, you're onto something...

There's some of these that sound better than others...it's always cool to sit down with a pencil and paper and see what the notes actually give you in relationship to the chord of the moment...take for example, that arpeggio based on the third--the Em7...

That gives you E, G, B, D-- the 3rd, fifth, seventh and ninth of that C maj7 chord, yielding a Cmaj9 sound...always a cool one...

[ColinO]

Mr. B - I'm glad you responded to that. I respect your opinion. I am relatively new to jazz and am trying to figure out what's going on most of the time. I feel like this way of thinking is a good path to explore for me at the moment. I have tried getting to know the chord sub "rules" but find them very difficult to apply to tunes. But if I just start looking for chords diatonic to the tonal center of the part of the tune I am in, I find I can find my way around a bit better and more quickly. I don't really get into a lot of books, although I have a few that I really like, but are you aware of any that might help me focus on this in both comping and improv? Or would you suggest just learning tunes?

[boatheelmusic]

I think you might like Les Wise's "Jazz Solos for Guitar".

[ColinO]

Thanks boatheelmusic - I'll take a look at that.

[marcwv]

As far as the comment about not using a C scale in "So what" and using a D dorian scale. Whats wrong with starting on the 7th "C" or any other note in the C scale. All equally boring if you just play the scale.But for sure a starting point for someone who is just learning to improvise.
As far as th E7th you have to look at the structure of the tune to see where it's commig from and where it's going. That will usually define, and I said usually...which scale will fit . But ultimately does it sound good or can you make it sound good! I really don't think we all are very far off base with each other ....but I disagree on some of the explanations . I've listened to some of the playing and some of you are great!

[Double 07]

The trick is to really begin seeing the chord tones contained within all the modes in all positions over every chord type. So over D minor that would be D, F, A, and C. Like superimposing those inside of the modes, leaning on the chord tones during the right times within the musical phrases you play; usually on the strong beats. There really is an art to it and the best way I've found is just by listening to and being around good players hearing their phrasing and beginning to utilize that in your playing. Transcribing solos of your favorite players is another good tool. Then also incorporation other tension notes against chords to add more flavor. Adding that all to the matrix of the "modes" then you'll begin sounding like your playing over changes rather than just noodling around in a general key center.

So in other words if I was just playing C major over a II, V, I in the key of C: Dmin7 G7 ALT, C maj7, as the chords changed the way I played that C major scale would change over each chord to sound like each chord as it comes up. That's accomplished by learning how to emphasize the tones most relevant to each chord (chord tones) as the chord comes up in the progression. Even though I'm including other notes from the C major scale in the phrasing. You definitely should know the modes but putting the chord tones in the right spots within the phrase is really what makes a phrase sound like say D minor rather than C major. It takes time to get really proficient at it but that's part of the challenge that makes playing fun IMO.

Also I advocate expanding ones definition of what a chord tone is beyond 1,3,7 to include the upper extensions like 13th's, 9th's, even a b5 here and there can all sound very functional and also give you more options to work with.

I think of them as "formulas" and I outline all of those necessary tools in the book on my little website.

[meritonemusic]

No, not at all...I'm suggesting you need to know the characteristic pitches of modes--the notes that define why they sound unique, and if you want to use a modal sound, that's how you're going to get it.

Hey guys!

These jam tracks may be helpful for practicing the unique sound and defining characters of each mode...


Modal practice jam track for ALL 7 major modes from G

G Ionian, G Dorian, G Phrygian, G Lydian, G Mixolydian, G Aeolian and G Locrian Mode

Jam track for ALL 7 major modes from C

C Ionian, C Dorian, C Phrygian, C Lydian, C Mixolydian, C Aeolian and C Locrian Mode

Happy jamming