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In the current thread regarding bedroom vs. performing musicians, someone wrote that working musicians tend to know upwards of 200 tunes while bedroom players know a couple and then fumble through a couple more. I fall into this category.
My question is how do you memorize so many tunes well enough to be able to comp the right chords behind the soloist? I would be terrified to get up on stage and space on some of the changes bringing the rest of the band down in flames.
Do these players get lost? If so, what do they do if they recognize that they've lost their place in the tune? What would they do if they blanked on some of the changes? I ask because I can easily picture myself in these situations if I were to play out.
Thanks for the help.
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11-26-2012 02:38 PM
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A couple of things...
Knowing the structure of the tune is half the battle...how many bars? How long is the bridge? What is the overall form?
Most of the time, you can look at a tune as "what's diatonic?" and "What's the oddball chords?" Remembering where the oddball chords are it is the most important...the rest is much easier to use your ear on...V and I...those are your best friends...
Once you learn, say, 50 tunes or so, you start to realize there's so many common movements...and really only a handful of "bridges" that get used, maybe with little unique things to them.
If a tune has words, I like to try to know them, even if it's my own little bastardized version of them...helps me keep my place.
Keeping things on the inside strings and creating movement towards the V (and eventually the I) can get you out of a lot of sticky situations...big wrong bass notes are the most obvious mistakes...staying out of that range is a good idea when comping anyway--unless you're the sole comping instrument...in that case...charts!
It's really good practice to transpose a tune and actually write it out...you'd be amazed at how much sticks with you...
On that same route, learning songs and thinking "ii--V" instead of "Dm--G7" isn't a bad idea...thinking of songs as movements and not chord names set in stone is another way out of a lot of sticky situations.
When in doubt, comp like Monk.
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I listened to a lot of music, got a real intuitive sense of what's coming up and what the ear was expecting. In agreement with Mr B I'd add that being aware of what song forms are and being able to discern harmonic movements by ear is really helpful. Personally, I found ear training and playing piano (just playing with one) really helpful to this end.
If I were learning a tune, I'd get as many recordings as I could and let it just seep in. Then I'd go after it with actual changes after I knew what they sounded like and they had meaning. Sound first, label after that.
There's an Aebersold volume on how to learn tunes, it breaks commonly used structures into sections you can mix and match. In other words, it's good at compositional vocabulary building. It could be helpful.
Writing things out works well too, I agree. It's a little bit of effort that really puts your ear on the spot and shakes up the ear/awareness.
I think something important happened when I stopped seeing pieces as being separate things to be learned one at a time and began believing they're all connected in tonality. When I figured out how the pieces fit together, I got much better at hearing in real time through the big picture.
Let me say that for me too, learning pieces by roman numeral was much more useful than by chord letter. Tonal relationships and the ear were the way for me.
Other people will disagree I'm sure. This is what works for me- just something to think about 'til the experts arrive and declare the gospel.Last edited by SearchForMeaning; 11-26-2012 at 04:32 PM.
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Mr. B's advice is (as usual) excellent. The more tunes you learn, the more you appreciate how the same building blocks crop up over and over. To that end, whenever you have trouble with a (great) tune and keep getting lost, don't ditch that tune because the same thing will crop up in some other ones: just bite the bullet and learn it. Even if it takes months, just learn it. It'll make many other tunes a snap to learn later. You'll get to where you see / hear songs in chunks.
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work on modal tunes first...less harmonic progression
work on tunes with just 4 or 5 changes next...
then move on.....
"A" section first...play it and play it and play it....etc..
then "B" section..as above..
the first 100 may be a challenge but after that they get easier..
as stated above by other members...lots of tunes have similarities that will
shine through as you progress...
take your time...if you play a song today that you could not play yesterday...you are progressing...
time on the instrument..
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"I can not overemphasize how important it is to sing what you play or play what you are singing. You do not have to be a singer. You don't have to sing loudly, or even above your breath. Scatting, as this is sometimes called, directly improves your ability to play what you heard, which in turn sounds less like someone playing memorized patterns."
Herb Ellis
(By the far the best way to learn tunes.)
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Hhhmm, where have I heard that before???
Originally Posted by whatswisdom
Speaking of which, I find it helpful to work on tunes I love and like to sing. I know the words, have favorite versions (-usually by Ella, Satch, Billie, or Sinatra), and that gives the tune more meaningful to me. There are SO many standards and even the list of "must-know" tunes can be pretty long; I always loved "Mean To Me" and started with that. It was the first standard I learned and first one I played in public. I'm not great now and sure wasn't then but it went over well and I think it's because I love that tune and always get into playing it. Never underestimate the power of loving a tune! This can also help with chord melody too because you have a sense of how you want the song to come across. Even if it's simple, if you really feel it, it can work.
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What really helped me in learning to memorize tunes was to...wait for it....memorize tunes! And then play them in stressful situations (jams, with an audience, etc). It's about forcing yourself out of your comfort zone for a prolonged period of time.
By this I mean that if you continue using leadsheets as a crutch, then you'll continue needing leadsheets as a crutch. The sooner you can get away from relying on the sheets (obviously we will all need them sometimes, but you want to add "can play a reasonable number of songs without sheets" to your list of skills), the better you will get at it. Like, for example, sight reading...you learn it by doing it. Last year I really forced myself to get away from the sheets, and it was very painful at first and yes I totally lost my place while comping many times...but like everything else, you keep doing it and you get better at it. You also learn that losing your place is not the end of the world, as long as you have the good sense to just lay out and listen for a few seconds and then drop back in.
Listening to recordings of your favorite tunes while mentally tracking the chords is also extremely helpful.
Learning tunes straight off the records also seems to burn the changes into my brain, however I concede that this can be quite time-consuming.
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When I learn a tune the first thing I do is memorize the generic root movement of the harmony relative to the main key of the tune, e.g.
Rhythm 1 6 2 5...
Giant Steps 1 b3 b6 7 3... etc.
...this might be how a bass player initially learns a tune - dunno.
I don't worry too much about chord quality as the ear seems to know this.
I approach the head similarly.
Then I try to put the bass with the head and practice it in different keys.
After that I add coloring intervals (mainly 7 3) and I've got a piece I can play
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Thanks to everyone for contributing to this thread. As expected, the advice was astounding. I have found the following words of advice to be especially helpful:
1. Learn the words and sing the melody.
2. Think diatonically and pick out the oddball chords in a progression.
3. Think about chord relationships and you will see them more often in more and more tunes.
4. Identify root movements relative to the key.
5. Play out and leave the charts at home.
I'm making a valiant effort to use all of these pieces of advice to better my skills and I'll let you know how I progress.
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Golden Thread, learning a lot from it, thanks for it just wanted you to know my gratitude.
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Function analysis is good
also simplification is handy
EG. if you've got
|Am7 Am7/G | F#m7b5 B7 | Em7 etc
you can think of it as
|Am7 | B7 | Em7 .....
check out this site
Index
well handy
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Pingu, thanks for adding that. The Vanilla Book is a great resource. One way it can help a player build a repertoire is that it allows you (-via the 'tonal centers' list) to find a list of standards with particular features (-for example, beginning with: I major, #I diminished, ii minor, #ii diminished iii minor you have "Ain't Misbehavin', "It Could Happen To You" and so on). Originally Posted by pingu
Look down the (long) list of partial progressions, play around with them on your guitar, find one you like, then find out which tunes are built on it. Work on the one you like. (Conversely, if you love a certain sort of chord movement but the band is sick of "that damned tune" you can find another one like it but with a different tune.)
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Re: Memorizing tunes
Here's a thread about classifying and learning the common 'building blocks' of tunes. Learning to hear them.
Check out post #14, I bought the book but haven't worked on it yet.
Conrad Cork's "Harmony with LEGO Bricks"
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This is good, but think about making #5 your #1, for then you will be forced to do the other things (playing out or jamming with others...they are both good for this). If you leave #5 as #5 then there is always the tendency to procrastinate it, or view it as the final step which can lead to procrastination....at least for me. There is value in shocking the system and flying by the seat of your pants a bit. Originally Posted by Klatu
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Coolvininy, I think #5 is the goal. 1-4 are the steps needed to achieve the goal.
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edh, I am not saying to burn one's Real Book and forever play without sheets...but if someone wants to learn to play without sheets, then in my experience they have to take the scary step of...playing without sheets. And they will crash and burn at first (I did) but that only lasts a little while.
It's just too easy to put it off otherwise - to say "well, I won't do this until I can tick off all the boxes on my detailed program" - you just have to start doing it...perhaps in "small portions" (e.g. 3 to 5 songs), but without necessarily ticking the boxes on the 4-step list. I'm just a lowly amateur, but once I decided that I would start rehearsing with my friend without using the sheets, a magical thing happened (after a few rehearsals...)...I could play without the sheets. And then I could learn new tunes very quickly, and much faster than before...and if I got lost on a tune, I could find my way much faster. It really allowed me to improve in a meaningful way.
I believe that sometimes we just have to give ourselves a kick in the ass, because we are all inherently lazy (to varying degrees) and procrastinators (ditto). That first kick can work wonders and really open up doors. Decide to play without sheets, and then pursue the other items on the list as a means to that end, but don't let those things hold you back from doing the scary thing.
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Originally Posted by fep
Thanks! That book looks very interesting. I just ordered it.
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Excellent thread with lots of good stuff. I have been focusing on memorizing a bit more lately, doing exactly what coolvinny talks about, although just when jamming with friends, not on gigs. Forcing myself to play a tune without a chart is helping.
A few more things I'll add concerning memorizing:
-Solfegio sometimes helps me with melodies, perhaps most especially those w/o lyrics.
-Playing melodies in octaves if I can get them under my fingers. Not that I necessarily want to perform the tune in octaves, but it is another way to force myself into a different place. Plus it adds to my fretboard visualization practice.
-Lastly, taking excerpts from tunes (perhaps more tricky lines) and playing them in other contexts, with variations, etc. This seems to help me absorb the line and hopefully add it to my vocabulary.
I haven't been doing any of this very long, but I'll see where it goes.
Matt
P.S. That Vanilla Book is a fantastic resource!
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Great thread! I'm taking notes.
/ Tony
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All,
I did buy "Insights in Jazz" by John Elloitt and have read through sections of the book. My interest is piqued. I think I am going to give this a shot. It does require learning some new terminology specific to the system. I'll probably try to make some flashcards to address that part. It certainly does look like there is some very good material in here though.
Rick
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Two more things I'll add.
You guys inspired me with this thread, so I simply made a list of about 70 tunes that I either have memorized, have partially memorized, or would like to memorize in the near future. I have been sitting with the list w/o charts and playing as much as I can remember of each melody and chord progression. I'm finding this simple approach a good way to evaluate how much I really have memorized, and if not, why? Tunes on the list I don't have at all memorized, obviously I get out the chart and/or listen to a recording with the goal of memorizing.
Also, this is not directly related to memorizing, but it is all about tunes and repertoire. Ted Gioia's wonderful book The Jazz Standards: A Guide to the Repertoire which I purchased a few months ago. This book provides background info and suggested recordings for over 250 tunes. Good resource for selecting tunes to work on as well as providing context for said tunes.
Matt
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Hi Matt, I'm trying to know tunes in a way that you might say memorized but I don't like the term as I think it implies more detail 'memorizing' than I want to do. Originally Posted by MattC
I've memorized some fancy show-off classical pieces. In that case I played/practiced them so much that I was able to play them with 'muscle memory'.
With jazz tunes it's more of a 'knowing' than 'memorization', at least that's what I'm striving for. For instance, ii V I progressions are so common in jazz standards, you eventually hear them. Or iv ii V I, same thing. So you start to hear these progressions and you don't really have to memorize them, you just know them. I think this is why professional jazz musicians know so many tunes, the majority of what they hear they already know.
Another related technique is to remember the tunes in as large of chunks as possible. For example, Autumn leaves, starts on the iv and moves thru the cycle of fifths down to the tonic... Then you have the ii V i bit and the turnaround where I like to do the chromatic descending one. Boom, you now know the tune and can now play it in any key. How easy is that?
I also wanted to share this site that ranks jazz standards based on how often they've been commercially recorded. Perhaps a very similar list to the one you mentioned. And if you click into the tunes it will list recordings and give other info re: the tune:
Jazz Standards Songs and Instrumentals ContentsLast edited by fep; 12-01-2012 at 11:01 AM.
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I think this is a good idea though I would add a word a caution: memory is a tricky thing and sometimes you "can't get started" with something that you actually know. (We've all struggled to recall the first line of a song and failed, only to discover as soon as we hear it played, all the words come back in a neat little row like baby ducks behind their mommy.) Originally Posted by MattC
One crucial thing that playing without charts teaches you is to GO RIGHT ON AFTER A MISTAKE. You learn not to freak out when you make a mistake, you learn to find your place again after losing it, and after doing that awhile, you relax more and make fewer mistakes. (I think anxiety causes more mistakes than failure to memorize.)
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Frank, I completely agree and get what you're saying (not that I'm there, but it's something to go for) about "knowing" vs. memorizing. After blues and rhythm changes, probably the chord progression I "know" best is All the Things You Are. Probably because years ago I studied it in arranging class, studied it on piano, played it as chord-melody, etc. The chords aren't memorized so much as just there. Originally Posted by fep
I relate it to my experience of learning and playing blues. Back when I learned that stuff, it was entirely by ear and by rote since I didn't really read.
I now better understand how some of the jazz masters (Wes and Benson for example) learned jazz the same way. I'm certainly not anywhere near that level of musicianship, but it helps my understanding of why they play the way they do, i.e very "naturally."
Also, thanks for that link. I've seen that site before but forgot about it. Gioia's book doesn't rank standards like that but he does certainly discuss how often tunes have been recorded, how they've held up (or not) over the years, etc.
Mark, I also agree with and appreciate your last post.
Matt
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