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Most experienced players see chord progressions and instinctively know when they can use 1 scale over a set of of chords. They know when 1 scale can be used over the next 3 or 4 chords because they know those chords share a key. i.e. G maj over a 2,5,1 or G pentatonic over Bb7 to E maj.
When I first look at a chart, I cant help but move to a new scale for every chord. How can I learn to see the different key changes in a set of chord progressions? Do players really just look at the progressions and do the theory-math in their heads as they go along or is there some more esoteric way of doing it?
Thanks for checking out the post, answers are appreciated
P.S. reposted this under improvisation cause I thought it was more appropriate
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10-15-2012 01:50 PM
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Although it may look like "instinct" it is more likely the product of years of hard work - there is a Michaelangelo quote that I love on that subject that you might want to google.
Originally Posted by redshifts
Most experienced players see chord progressions and instinctively know when they can use 1 scale over a set of of chords. They know when 1 scale can be used over the next 3 or 4 chords because they know those chords share a key. i.e. G maj over a 2,5,1 or G pentatonic over Bb7 to E maj.
When I first look at a chart, I cant help but move to a new scale for every chord. How can I learn to see the different key changes in a set of chord progressions? Do players really just look at the progressions and do the theory-math in their heads as they go along or is there some more esoteric way of doing it?
Thanks for checking out the post, answers are appreciated
P.S. reposted this under improvisation cause I thought it was more appropriate
I would make a couple of suggestions that might help(in no particular order):
1. Don't expect to be able to improvise over a chord progression on sight.
2.Take some time before you start to play to find the tonal center as it moves around in a song - write it down - find the scales that work with the different sections of the song - practise the scales. Think about the chord tones while you are playing the scales. Practice the scales using intervals and not just up and down.
3. Find the arpeggios for the chords all over the neck.
4. learn the melody really really well and fool around with it.
5. Play a lot of jazz blue progressions/rhythm changes/251s in a lot of keys.
Over time you will become better at recognizing what is going on faster. But don't expect so much out of yourself. The guys that are good at it and make it look easy put in a lot of legwork to get that way.
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Great answer Colin, thank you
If you post the quote I'll look it up
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"If people knew how hard I had to work to gain my mastery, it would not seem so wonderful at all." Michelangelo. Originally Posted by redshifts
Great answer Colin, thank you If you post the quote I'll look it up
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Originally Posted by redshifts
Most experienced players see chord progressions and instinctively know when they can use 1 scale over a set of of chords. They know when 1 scale can be used over the next 3 or 4 chords because they know those chords share a key. i.e. G maj over a 2,5,1 or G pentatonic over Bb7 to E maj.
When I first look at a chart, I cant help but move to a new scale for every chord. How can I learn to see the different key changes in a set of chord progressions? Do players really just look at the progressions and do the theory-math in their heads as they go along or is there some more esoteric way of doing it?
Thanks for checking out the post, answers are appreciated
P.S. reposted this under improvisation cause I thought it was more appropriate
redshifts,
I'm assuming when you ask about a "more esoteric way" you're asking if there's some secret, insider method as opposed to doing "theory-math" in your head.
Jazz isn't about playing scales over chord progressions. It's about playing songs. Most people who solo at a high level are playing songs that they're familiar with at a very intimate level. Sure, good players can sit down with a chord progression and play something that sounds pretty good but the ability to do that comes from playing lots of songs.
So, the secret, inside information is that jazz is learning to play songs and, also, that you will need more than just scales if you want to get really good at it.
Regards,
monk
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And also, a really good player might be addressing every chord change with their melodic line.
But on fast tunes, yes, it might help to think key center while practicing.
Have you done much "Roman Numeral Analysis?"
And as others have mentioned, the thinking part is for practice, and once it's internalized, it can come out naturally in your play. You'll also start to recognize and react to common "movements" in jazz tunes--stuff that happens in different keys in a bunch of songs...
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Great improvisers have worked for years (even decades) to master their craft. I think the most straight forward approach is to begin with what is often referred to as Chord (or Chordal) Scales.
Jazz is based largely on 7th Chords with extensions and sometimes alterations. Basically the Chord Scale works out to be 1 3 5 7 9 11 13 for any particular chord.
Of course the 3rd and 7th are either natural or flatted (and other tones natural, flatted or sharped) according to the type of 7th-Chord based on scale degree of the tonality (i.e. Major, Harmonic/Melodic Minor, etc.) it is functioning in.
This is the basic "tone palette" from which to draw from (chord-by-chord) when improvising. Of course lots of chords have common tones (and even common "fingering fragments") resulting in many repeating notes/shapes when this is actually applied to the fretboard. My recommendation is to start out with playing through these chord scales from 1 to 7 (i.e. seven notes 1-2-3-4-5-6-7) for each type of 7th chord (e.g. Imaj, IImin7, ... V7, VImin7) etc. as they functions in major, harmonic/melodic minor, etc. scales. Then move to the seven notes going from 3 to 9 (i.e. 3-4-5-6-7-root-9), then 5 to 11 (i.e. 5-6-7-root-9-3-11), then finally 7 to 13 (i.e. 7-root-9-3-11-5-13). Learn these on sets of 2 adjacent strings. Learn to play them legato both ascending and descending.
There is TON of work here, but there are no shortcuts to becoming a master improvisor and a "second-nature" application of chord tones to the fretboard is IME essential to this. There may be other approaches but this one is proven by the greatest jazzers alive today as well as the legends.
By using approach notes and sequences that lead to a target chord tone (i.e. from among the chord's scale tones) one can begin to develop nice melodic fragments which can then be developed into longer and more complex lines, motifs, etc..
Currently I'm working through All the Things You Are, Solar, and Blues for Alice, as "templates" for this. The tunes provide the harmonic context for the chordal scales and application. The idea is to master these things on the finger-board during practice so they are second nature when actually playing
All of this and a great deal more are detailed in Jerry Bergonzi's excellent DVDs.
I recently purchased both volumes. They synthesize the fundamentals of modern improvisation better than most resources that I've worked with. They do so in the context of several tunes including two that I was already working on. It will take me years to apply everything in these two DVDs to my playing.Last edited by SevenStringJazz; 10-16-2012 at 07:21 AM.
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+1 for SevenString Jazz's advice on Chord Scales. I went for years thinking in terms of modes. It's much easier to think in terms of chords. Pass said the same thing, even his scales came from CAGED chords shapes, and for good reason. I'm still working on this of course, but i've seen great improvement coming from a similar background to what you described, i'd bet you'd see great improvement if you study this.
Bergonzi's tapes seem great from the sample video's I'm really considering buying his lessons.
Check out Bert Ligon's Connecting Chords With Linear Harmony, there is a sample of the first few chapters out there somewhere if you want to get an idea. Highly reccomend it. It focuses on creating melodic lines that target the 3rd of each chord you're heading too.
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+1 for Bert Ligon's Connecting Chords With Linear Harmony. He should do a DVD series based on this book! Bergonzi has a series of improv-related books too, yet I think the way he presents the material on the DVDs makes it more interesting and accessible vs. a book format. Originally Posted by euterpe
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I wouldn't say it's "instinctive" although if I hear a chord progression I can spot all the modulations with my ears pretty fast. And I can usually even figure out what scale to use by "ear" pretty fast. Though to be honest, it's faster and more accurate to just use my brain since I took the time to learn all the theory ;o) I can just glance at the chart and know all the keys more or less instantly, but I've been doing this for like around 18 years (it's been roughly 18 years since I began learning the basic theory to identify keys). Originally Posted by redshifts
The goal is actually to find the least amount of scales to use for a given chord progression. Once you can do that expertly, then, and only then, should you try to get fancy by adding in additional scales (which of course you always can).When I first look at a chart, I cant help but move to a new scale for every chord.
You learn the theory. Learn to identify keys, it's not that hard really. It's basically deduction that you use to identify keys. For example, as you know, most chords (i.e. major / minor) exist in multiple keys (3 to be exact). For example E major can be the I chord in E, IV chord in B, and V chord in A. So just seeing an E major chord alone doesn't help us much, but combine it with say an F# major, and there can only be one key with both an E maj and F# maj chord, B major. So by learning your keys very well, more or less memorized (notes and chords), you can quickly and easily spot key centers. A little memorization will go a long ways. I began learning this stuff around 18 yrs ago like I said, it took maybe a few years to get it all internalized, and get it to the point where I could analyze chord progressions more or less at sight. I'm sure over the last 15 yrs or so it has improved more, but really with just a 2-3 year span of learning on your own, you can go a long ways. Just take the time to learn a few fundamental things. For me the big eye opener was learning the circle of fifths, and how modulation works (like common chord modulation, chromatic modulation, etc...). Secondary dominants is also important to understand.How can I learn to see the different key changes in a set of chord progressions? Do players really just look at the progressions and do the theory-math in their heads as they go along or is there some more esoteric way of doing it?
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+1 Originally Posted by jazzadellic
I like to see things as either I or V (especially for maj keys). Once you work out the what key a section is in, subdivide it to it's V and I components. Sometimes there'll only be a dominant group (ii, V or viim7b5) or a tonic group (I, iii, vi etc) for a passing key centre instead of both. Other times there will be multiple interpretations where you can rely on your ear to tell you what sounds right.
Of course with Blues, that's a whole 'nother bag.....
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Very simply, it's about the sound you hear in your head. It takes quite a while to get that sound onto the guitar.
I just started taking private lessons from a new teacher, who teaches in University and performs regularly.
The first thing he did, which seems simple at first was to play an Em-Am vamp and tell me to solo over it. It occurred to me that he was learning exactly where I was in terms of ear training, note choice, phrasing and application. Would I be a rocker who wanted to play jazz and start with an Em pentatonic box? (No BTW) But when I played the first F# note in my little exploration, he knew where to start me, and for the rest of the lesson we worked on Lydian, and Lydianb7 lines. Then he started simply vamping on dominant chords and in real time said "Play a mixolydian line; now flat the 7th; now alter the 9th; now play an arpeggio over the tritone. Then he vamped the first two chords of Bright Size Life: GM7 and BbM7b5. He continued like that for 10 minutes and in that 10 minutes he forced me to play stuff that I hadn't thought of before.
I never though of switching scales, but just playing the melodies that came into my head, partially as a result of the scale exercise we had just completed.
So I guess that's a long winded way of saying that even though everything was sort of scale and chord tone based, I never thought of switching scales, just building lines. My answer to how I did it was years of listening, a reasonable amount of practice, but mostly hearing sounds that stuck in my head from listening.
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Personally, I think that all of the examples here have a similar theme-
They seem to imply a key-centre based approach that makes alterations based on the specific chord.
Say the line is a basic ii7-V7-I line in Db. You could improvise over this with just the Db major scale, provided you focus on addressing the chord tones of each chord within said scale. If you wanted to move more 'out', you could include more tensions that would not appear normally in the Db major scale- a flattened 2nd degree over the ii7 chord, for example (the degree refers to its place with reference to the key, not the chord, by the by.)
I've seen a number of old-time based jazzers recommend this approach- one of them is Ed Byrne, who is well reputed on other jazz sites for providing excellent posts.
Another way of looking at it, which ties into the chord scales that SevenString suggested and is based on a Matt Warnock lesson - is to pair arpeggios. For example, if you were improvising over the ii chord in Db major you'd use the Eb minor seventh arpeggio combined with the F minor seventh if you wanted an in key sound, and you'd modify those arpeggios if you wanted a more outside sound.
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There are no secrets... and it will become more complicated before it becomes easy.... The same collection of notes can imply many concepts, or applications of concepts.
Players that are aware of what the music... the melody, harmony etc.. actually implies or could imply, have the freedom your searching for.
The process of becoming aware of music is very mechanical... when viewed from a distance... may seem very complicated, but is still made up of small simple parts. yes.... will take a while.
If it was easy, everyone would be a great jazz player. Most seem to enjoy the journey, I understand fairly well and can play... but am still on the road.
Reg
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Sometimes I think about Dexter Gordon...
He just played music not too much thinking about scales.
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i'd suggest learning the root position arpeggios for each chord first, then playing them without a backing track. You'll quickly hear where you need to change key/scale
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You are describing a 'key center' approach where you don't have to thing of or address each chord.
That often works in rock and pop playing but not so much in jazz.
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Fep, there is an element of truth in your statement, but the way you state it is misleading. Learning to identify and play in key centers is level 1. What you are talking about is maybe level 3 or 4. You can't get to level 3 or 4 unless you master level 1. Learning level 1 may take a few years of study and practice. You shouldn't direct people who haven't learned level 1 yet that level 1 is pointless and they need to learn level 4 first. It doesn't work that way. You have to build up to it. And for the record even though I play at "level 4" or beyond...I still use key center identification every single time. And furthermore, a higher level of complexity in your thinking does not equal better sounding music. I've heard plenty of players who sound worse because they try to do too much with each chord. With a good ear and just thinking in key centers, someone is perfectly capable of making better sounding lines than someone who has a whole list of formulas for each chord. Originally Posted by fep
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Agreeing whole heartedly with all preceeding posts, just some passing oblique observations from my own approach-
Yes in tonal areas, you will share notes, and arpeggiation will help you hear the harmony in a non scalular way, as will identifying the root movement. There is also a thematic approach which doesn't necessarily preclude scale movement so maybe this is not the answer you're looking for. If you begin an idea, you can follow that idea through the changes not breaking the thought for the bar line.
That means you put your priority on the idea, using the sound of the implied changes to guide you. The suggestion of playing over a vamp is right on, for breaking into this approach. Motiv playing can offer one solution to the "new chord begin a scale from the root and fill the space" approach.
It takes time, but more to the point, it takes an attitude of listening, to yourself and the changes, to play this way but it can be refreshing and a good tool for your vocabulary to be aware of the possibilities of playing through a series of changes with one line, idea or motiv.
In this example:
Watch how Pat plays beautifully and imparts a real beauty to each change. He frames his phasing within the chord changes and plays them, maybe in a way similar to what you inquire an alternative to.
Now watch from 1:50 to 2:05, Mick plays an ascending phrase that, rising like a bubble through the eddies and currents of the tune, remains intact and takes the shape of the changes without falling apart.
2:22 to 2:32 the same idea with a different motiv.
2:38 to 2:48 is an descending line through some nice changes.
If you learn the changes to this tune, you'll see that the notes all fit beautifully, but he's not "highlighting" each change, but rather his statement is larger than the form.
He's playing to a sound, and not necessarily to the constructs of the individual chords.
Another knowledgeable musician with something to say:
about 4:30 he shows some nice chord negotiation with patterns and motivs. Sco studied with the Mick along with learning from other greats (Miles) but his style is always growing. You hear this approach in evolving forms throughout his career.
Knowing and hearing your triads in all inversions is really helpful in hearing note relationships in passing chords too. All to often learning chord scales is taken to mean mindlessly running then from root to root ad nausium. Try thinking of getting to know a chord scale as uncovering all the little diads, triads, phrases, (rhythmicise a scale into a speech like phrase when you practice and get to know the notes) and yes, take some looping technology and take a section of the tune with phrasing to it, record the changes and improvise, exploring space, motiv, statement, direction, dynamics, and what you're saying. Pretty soon you'll find the zone where the dictates of the bar lines recede. That's where you want to be. Learn to practice the path to getting there.
Hope this is not totally out in left field regarding your question.
DavidLast edited by TH; 10-23-2012 at 09:36 AM.
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I still struggle with this. Analyze the chord progression. What notes are common in all the chords? Sometimes there's only one note that changes from one scale to another. Of course a chromatic change will dictate a new scale. Making it sound like your not switching scales is the challenge for me.
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this is not for everybody but some people prefer to eliminate theory all together and take a different method.this may take longer but can be very effective but like i said not for everybody lol so all of you classically trained and students of roman numeral analysis and theory methods.anyways in this method you play each note on the fretboard .one note a day or maybe one note a week.however works best for you.may take even a year for some but is well worth it.mean whil dont play any scales,dorians,lydians,arpeggios or anything of that sort.mean while as well listen to extremly fast music.lots of classical tunes and lots of jazz tunes.start humming your songs and you will find that your changing the notes around to much of you own improv without even trying.so the goal is to do that on the guitar like you would when singing humming whistling ect.when you speak english you dont have to think about everyword your saying you just speak.when you speak a foreighn language you often have to think very intensly about it for a good while.so you want to make the sounds of the guitar(fingerboard) like a native language then you could play whatever you want andwhatever you think of..because like when you speak english(or you native language)its like thinking outloud through your voice so now learn to do so with the guitar.so at first try to play what you sing.the association between the two will make its way into a habit in your mind...
just my 2 cents.alot of people hate this type of method.but alot of people like it
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Honestly, jazzman, that is the idea. Scales, arpeggios, modes, whatever--they're just tools for organization. Which you need to play jazz...I don't care how good somebody's ear is, you can't make it in jazz unless you have some kind of organization system, be it academic, visual, or even intuitive.
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I learned the key center approach from Jimmy Bruno and never abandoned it. I get compliments on how my lines outline the changes. It's a matter of ear. Bruno guided me to train my ear to hear every interval of each chord with embellishments and approaches. Arpeggios from the root and all chord tones. Suddenly I could play bebop. Originally Posted by fep
Later I went on to explore other approaches, but I could play the changes when I was still using a key center approach only.
You can call it whatever you want, it's the ear that matters. He taught me to hear each note as it related to each chord in the key, but I visualized the same parent scale all through. It was a matter of training my muscle memory.
Many pros other than Bruno swear by a key center approach. Me, I've explored CST as well and find that they perfectly complement each other. In the end it's all muscle memory and ear. Don't be so quick to knock an approach, although I understand what you're getting at, there are ways to get to bebop land through a key center approach.
All roads lead to Rome, eventually...
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yes it is true you need organization especially when trying to play fast.you need the "muscle memory".take this tab and notice its tough to play fast without practicing.but i can be bad to get in the habit of playing arpegios over and over.this thought process has been expressed greatly by Andreas Oberg.but when he teaches he still teaches the modes as a foundation.anyways i love this forum and the people on it have been very generous and helpful to me so i hope i dont cause to much of a stir lol.anyways heres the tab i was refering to earlier. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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e-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
b---------------------------------------------------------------9-----9--12----
g---------------------------------------------7---7--10-7-10----10----------
d--------------------------6-----6--9--6--9---9-------------------------------
a--------5----5--8-5--8-----8-------------------------------------------------
e--4--7----7-------------------------------------------------------------------
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