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Hey guys, I've been playing for 9 years, I know all of my modes and altered scales etc. I love the color palette that is available to me using all these scales. I have a problem though. I cant play what I hear in my head and play using scales at the same time. In fact, I don't really understand how that can be done??
How can you play the notes that are in your head if you are using a scale to choose your next note?
How is it possible? If you're playing whats in your head, why not abandon scales altogether? I'm sure I'm gonna get alot of answers like "the scales serve as a guide to play what's in your head" and stuff like that but the problem is, I CANT THINK IN TERMS OF SCALES, AND HEAR MELODIES IN MY HEAD AT THE SAME TIME!!
Any answers are very much appreciated, thanks for taking the time to read my post and please help!!
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10-11-2012 04:51 PM
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Playing what you hear is the step after those scales have been internalized...
Not every player always "plays what they hear." If you hear a melody, that's playing what you hear...but so is hearing a general contour of a line and going for it...jazz musicians playing 8ths at 300bpm over a bop tune aren't hearing every note they play before they play it...rather, it's a simultaneous reaction...they hear where they are and where they want to go and then the synapses take over.
Even at slower tempos, I might only hear "highlights" of a faster line...at that point, who cares what scale they can be related to? If you analyze enough everything comes from somewhere...but in "real time" that's not the objective.
It's very possible to "hear" a melody that comes from a certain scale...but if you find yourself thinking about what scale to play, you're dead in the water....the thinking is for the practice room.
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don't think of the theory of scales...
what sound do you hear in your head...
where on the fingerboard is that sound..
think of the sound only...
it takes time..just stay with it..
time on the instrument...
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You're definitely over thinking this.
How would you be able to play what's in your head if you don't use the scale in the first place?
If you're playing a simple melody and what you hear in your head is following a typical major scale sound, you have to know where those notes are, and the only way to know is to have a good control of that major scale in all positions.
Bottom line, you have to know your scales incredibly well so that when you do hear a line in your head, you can convert what you hear onto the fretboard without having to randomly search for the next note.
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Practice singing a SHORT phrase out loud, then play that short phrase.
After this becomes comfortable, start singing AND playing short phrases simultaneously. Start very slow and with simple phrases.
Eventually this will become easier and more embellished.
Best of luck!
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Can you identify what you're hearing in your head? Is it scalar? Is it chord tones? Is it intervallic? Most melodies contain componants from all three.
Music isn't just scales.
If you haven't explored playing with chord tones (triads and diatonic arpeggios) it may be time for you to explore that aspect as it relates to soloing. It would be helpful if you would give us some specifics regarding what you are trying to play as far as a style of jazz. Swing, bebop, modal, hard bop, fusion, contemporary.
The advice to sing something then play it is good advice. Call and response. Something else you could do is record yourself scatting a solo to the backing track of a tune that you're familiar with and then transcribe your solo. Write it down and analyse it. This will give you a clear picture of how what you're hearing fits against the chords of the song. You may be trying to play scalar but hear chord tones or intervals in your head.
Also, if you can't identify what you're hearing in your head, it's probably time to buckle down to some serious ear training.
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Could not agree more! What you describe is pretty much where I find my own state of improv work.
Originally Posted by monk
Learning scales is a necessary part of technical development and fret board mastery. in my experience learning them on single-strings, and string pairs with positions shifts and legato is very important.
Also, music that is composed beyond simple step-wise melodic exercises is as much about idiomatic phrases that help define a particular "style". This includes intervallic skips, all manner of articulations, pedaling, repeating sub-phrases, use of non-harmonic tones, etc.
I love your idea about scatting against a backing track and then transcribing it to see what's actually going on. Chances are, if one has (e.g. by listening to the masters) internalized the melodic ideas then at least some of this will come out in the scatting.
The next step is figure out how to play what one is scatting, or at least what is "heard in the mind". In my experience (which includes a few instances of "starting over" on how to improv over the past 30 years) this is best actualized by having lots of melodic ideas worked out on single strings and also with 3 and 4 note-per-string "melodic fragments" on adjacent strings.
There's really no end to building this vocabulary. Learning classic bop heads and melodies from standards is a great way to get started too.
The key is to be able to listen and respond in "real-time" to the music. This is true whether you are playing solo, duo or with an ensemble.
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To me, the major scales or key centers are the framework, the safe notes. If you hear a chromatic note as part of a line you will hear what scale tone it is located next to when the scale is in your ear so you'll be able to find it more easily. A scale is only part of a line, but it's one sound, one step of the process. Then you practice arpeggios and chromatic embellishments and all these together form a line that makes sense.
You can't isolate a concept and only think about that and expect a good result. But you must limit yourself when you practice. For a while, only use the scale. Then, when you are comfortable with that, add arpeggios. Then chromatic notes, embellishments etc. But you must do it one step of the time. Your brain should only have one foreign concept to think of. So when you start working on arpeggios, scales must be automatic and internalized. And so on as you add stuff.
As each of these are internalized, they will become part of what you hear. You might hear other things, but you can only play what is in your muscle memory! This is important. So, evaluate what you hear. If you hear lines with arpeggios in it, fourths or whatever, work on those concepts and when they are second nature and embedded in your muscle memory, they will be a spontaneous reaction and come out on their own when you hear them. All in the synapses, like Mr Beaumont said.Last edited by AmundLauritzen; 10-12-2012 at 10:49 AM.
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Yes you can. You have to know enough of them, and you have to know them so well you don't have to think about them when you play. I've found that there are times when I am in the "zone" and can play almost with no delay between my imagination and what I play, and there are other times (probably most of the time) when I can't quite get into the "zone" and my fingers are doing most of the work. I think this may be one thing that distinguishes the great jazz players and the other 99% of us. The other thing of course is you have to have good ideas to begin with, otherwise being able to play what you imagine might not be enjoyable to listen to ;o) I find that not everyone has good taste / ideas in this regard, and I think this the other factor which distinguishes the great players from the average ones. I've been teaching guitar for over 13 years and playing for over 22 now, and how to "get into the zone" and "what sounds good" are two things I don't think you can learn from any book or teacher, (at least I haven't figured out how to teach it), you have to pretty much figure it out for yourself.
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Musical phrases are not constructed mechanically, but artistically. You can use mechanical devices (Scales, arpeggios, all the theory stuff) as tools, but eventually you need to be able to contrust things artistically, which to a musician means based on how they sound.
You can use the idea that scales are a "pool of notes" from which you can derive musical phrases. This doesn't mean simply ascending and descending scales. One strives to make music, not just sounds.
The sing then play approach can really help to get this!Last edited by Petimar; 10-12-2012 at 04:58 PM.
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I don't think you learned scales the right way.
There's only one way anyone can truly play music from their head.
That is, to know what the notes are, and how to find them on the instrument.
(in relative pitch terms, not perfect pitch).
Working scales and arpeggios is about learning the instrument, so that, 1), when you think "G7", the fretboard lights up with all the intervals in relation to that harmony, and, 2), you learn to hear the sounds of those pitch collections and intervals in relation to a key note. (and thirdly, scales and arps also function as technique builders).
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thanks for the answers guys ill try the singing and playing
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I've found success with diving deep into the scales with my students. Although you can run through your scales you have to really know each note and how it reacts over the harmony. Try this:
Over a recording of a chord vamp (say G, with the G scale):
Play your scale up and down. Improvise with it. ONLY play up and down, but change up the rhythm.
Find ALL the chords tones. Improvise with them.
Approach each chord tone from the tension above. (2,1 - 4,3, etc) Practice it well. Improvise using this idea. Improvise using this idea and the up/down scale ideas.
Approach each chord tone form the tension below. Continue improv as above.
Surround each chord tone from the tension above/below. Continue improv as above.
Surround each chord tone from the tension below/above. Continue improv as above.
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Here is the problem. You are trying to do what every musician wants to do from day one. Be free. Be free to express what they want to express. It ain't easy.
A toddler for example only has a limited vocab. It's hard to express what they want to express. A master poet though, as a huge vocab and can say what they want with elegance. Sounds like you need a bigger vocab and more grammar knowledge. In the practice room, limit yourself to a specific idea. Practice that idea well. Learn it. Then, here's the kicker, learn 1,000 ideas. Then, 10,000 ideas. Then, 100,000 ideas. These ideas should be ready for your picking when you want them because that sound you have in your head wants them. This is how the human brain works. We can't just "have" our intellectual freedom, we have to set ourselves up to be successful in expressing it at the speed of inspiration. In other words, if you ain't got the words, you ain't gonna say it when you wanna say it. Dig?
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I agree Baerash. To the OP, it sounds like you need to really study the basic fundamentals more before you move on. By the time you start training yourself to really be able to play anything you hear, you should be able to play any scale, any arpeggio, any chord, etc. at any location on the fretboard. Can you play through All the Things You Are using only the arpeggios of the harmony all in 8th notes? If you have absolutely any hiccup whatsoever when trying this, you need to develop your fundamentals.
Every great jazz player should also be able to play the blues really well.
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And not just with pentatonics or blues scales and not just with three chords. Originally Posted by bluewaterpig
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A-freaking-MEN! Originally Posted by monk
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if you can play twinkle twinkle little star without thinking of then you can also play that more complicated solo you have in your head.just be persistent and practice alot
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Totally.
When you play Chord tones, know what tree you're plucking them from.
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+1 to picking out simple melodies with your scales. Or singing a line and figuring it out over your scales. You may run into some non diatonic notes, but that's ok. You'll still see where it fits and therefore where the line comes from.
To me: As scales are the building blocks of melody and harmony, you should be able to play what's in your head using them. I agree completely in regards to internalizing them.
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you need to know what scale/harmony applies to the chords you're playing on, but the majority of jazz soloing is arpeggio/chord tone based. If you think scale your brain will lean towards playing all 7 notes, and thats a lot of information to put in one lick. the scale teaches you all of the available tones you may wish to use so you need to know them, even if you are just going to use a few notes from it
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For a beginner, I would submit that scalar playing is more likely to result in step-wise motion than in the skips and leaps that are common to arpeggio/chord tone thinking. Originally Posted by Mike A
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I'm wondering if both could be employed. Originally Posted by monk
We might even edit the scales and add rhythm.....
I'm on a roll here......
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I like really building gradually with beginners on improv...I might start as simple as finding one note that works over each chord (or a few chords) and playing with that rhythmically...you can do a lot with that...
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This isn't so. My mom can play anything she wants to on the piano and if I ask her what key she's in, she'll wait till she finishes, find middle C and move up or back and say something, "It's E in the black keys." I don't think she knows what a triad is. She was playing for high school kids' talent shows and in church when she was in junior high. She didn't know how to read music. (She can't play anything she HASN'T heard, of course, but it's eerie to see her prick up her ear at the music in a television commercial, walk over to the piano, play whatever they're playing.) Originally Posted by RyanM
This isn't improvisation, but she can play hundreds of songs and has no idea what a "dominant seventh" chord even is, but when the tune calls for one, she plays one.
What I wouldn't give to have her ear!
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Yep, I'm with Mark on this. At 18, I didn't know a thing about theory or what the notes on my guitar were. Originally Posted by RyanM
But if you played me Cm7b5 to B7 to EMa7#11 to G7#5 I could play those sounds and blow on those changes....... some subtleties I wouldn't get. I got deeper into it when I learned some theory for sure. But I could blag a decent solo over most changes.
I remember being in a shop when I was 18 and I was a young gun and this guy was playing the chords to Stella (never heard of it at that time) and I was trying to follow him..... doing ok (ish) and he turned to me afterwards and said 'you're really good, but ya gotta get ya shit together..'
Wish I could find that guy to thank him.....
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