Ideas that work against V as well as I....

[princeplanet]

Some may refer to it as "skating" over changes, you know, just blow over the chords without specifically landing on important chord tones. Rock and blues guys do it by using pentatonic and blues scales, where the "sound" of the scale forces itself over everything you play and the ear soon gets used to this ambivalence..... until it gets boring, real quick for some of us I'm sure

But there are other ways to use material where you can sound like you are hitting the changes, without really thinking too much about it. I find patterns or sequences that embellish the 13th arpeggio fit over any diatonic chord of a given key, because you are either implying chord tones, extension, or both! Chromatic lines that descend except for approaching 3rds and 7ths of the major key can sound ok against any diatonic chord in that key as well. And of course the pentatonic and blues scales (perhaps with extra passing notes) can be blended with the above to create endless lines.

I know it's a cop out to some extent, and I don't wanna give the impression I'm trying to shirk the work ( I do a lot of embellished arp and GT shedding), but I'm interested to see what others think about this. Are you always thinking of the chord you're on, or do you allow yourself to "skate" sometimes? What are your fave ways of doing it?

I tried to analyze some Herbie Hancock recently, and I saw a lot of instances where certain lines seemed to have more in common with , say, a tonic chord when it was over the Dom, or vice versa. Obviously a master and able to play anything over anything and make it work, but isn't there a lesson in there for the rest of us?

Wasn't it Herbie that once was quoted as saying he never liked playing the "butter notes" (ie, 3rds and 7ths) ??

EDIT: I thought I should mention that I like to often see all the chords in a given tune as either having a Tonic sound or a Dominant sound, so I think V for ii, V and m vii b5, and "I" for everything else. I have my Tonic bag, and my Dominant bag, but above I'm talking about my "ambi"Tonic" bag - where the ideas fit over both qualities.

In a nutshell, when improvising, I can treat everything as either a V or a I or both. Does anyone else like to think like his?

[JensL]

This is probably not the answer you where looking for.....

Some may refer to it as "skating" over changes, you know, just blow over the chords without specifically landing on important chord tones. Rock and blues guys do it by using pentatonic and blues scales, where the "sound" of the scale forces itself over everything you play and the ear soon gets used to this ambivalence..... until it gets boring, real quick for some of us I'm sure

I guess it depends on what and how it's done. Playing up and down arpeggios gets really boring too. If you play a which is a variation on the melody then it might be like that.
Running up and down the scale at random is probably not sound that great.
You can leave out a lot of changes if you land on the right chord note at the right time though.

But there are other ways to use material where you can sound like you are hitting the changes, without really thinking too much about it.

I think the best way for that is practice playing changes untill it you don't have to think about it.

I find patterns or sequences that embellish the 13th arpeggio fit over any diatonic chord of a given key, because you are either implying chord tones, extension, or both! Chromatic lines that descend except for approaching 3rds and 7ths of the major key can sound ok against any diatonic chord in that key as well. And of course the pentatonic and blues scales (perhaps with extra passing notes) can be blended with the above to create endless lines.

I'm not sure what you mean, but if it is using f.ex Bm7b5 arp over Dm7 or Fmaj7 arp over Am7 then I don't agree with you.

I know it's a cop out to some extent, and I don't wanna give the impression I'm trying to shirk the work ( I do a lot of embellished arp and GT shedding), but I'm interested to see what others think about this. Are you always thinking of the chord you're on, or do you allow yourself to "skate" sometimes? What are your fave ways of doing it?

Again if you practice the song and playing the changes you don't have to think. Another thing is that you could also choose to play a passage more as a melody and ignore the changes or only play the bigger harmonic movements. Chet Baker does that a lot. Playing melodies Bb over a rhythm A part would be an example, or making the lines |I | V| instead of |I VIdom |II V|. Probably the strongest approach and the one that will be most rewarding in you playing is to play of the melody.

I tried to analyze some Herbie Hancock recently, and I saw a lot of instances where certain lines seemed to have more in common with , say, a tonic chord when it was over the Dom, or vice versa. Obviously a master and able to play anything over anything and make it work, but isn't there a lesson in there for the rest of us?

I don't know the example, but there could be several reasons for that. Phrasing cross the barline (which he does very often) or as I mentioned above ignoring some changes.

EDIT: I thought I should mention that I like to often see all the chords in a given tune as either having a Tonic sound or a Dominant sound, so I think V for ii, V and m vii b5, and "I" for everything else. I have my Tonic bag, and my Dominant bag, but above I'm talking about my "ambi"Tonic" bag - where the ideas fit over both qualities.

In a nutshell, when improvising, I can treat everything as either a V or a I or both. Does anyone else like to think like his?

You might be missing the sub-dominant function, it's been around for centuries why throw it away now?

I am sorry if I am a bit rude in my answers, I am not setting out to offend you in any way. At the same time your post really comes across as a typical "give me one scale that fits the whole song" Which is something I hear from beginning jazz-students quite often. The hardest part of learning something new is being patient with one self...

Don't worry about it too much it is after all just my opinion.

Jens

[Spirit59]

I *think* princeplanet is talking about things like playing blues over the A section of rhythm changes, but not because you *can't* nail the changes, and not *only* doing that.

I could be wrong. I think some real examples are in order.

[Spirit59]

I think the term is "suspension of the harmony". This is a common device.

Personally, I've done things like, during a solo in Solar, I'll stay on the last G7, across the bar into the next chorus, and treat everything like a G7 alt until right before the Fmaj7, I'll lead into it with a C7 alt. This kind of stuff works great in a trio or as long as whoever's comping can hang. Obviously, you don't want to do this all the time.

[Spirit59]

I thought I should mention that I like to often see all the chords in a given tune as either having a Tonic sound or a Dominant sound, so I think V for ii, V and m vii b5, and "I" for everything else. I have my Tonic bag, and my Dominant bag, but above I'm talking about my "ambi"Tonic" bag - where the ideas fit over both qualities.

In a nutshell, when improvising, I can treat everything as either a V or a I or both. Does anyone else like to think like his?

This kind of approach can work in many instances, especially over ii7-V7s, and can really free you up but I would caution against too much of this kind of thinking when dealing with more modern tunes, where "tonic vs dominant" just isn't sufficient or appropriate. There are mondo-long thread about this over at TGP, where Tag was the chief proponent of always thinking "tonic / dominant"......

[mr. beaumont]

Right, going across the bar line...although I wasn't under the impression that's what the OP was talking about.

I think there's a time to "blur" the changes--sometimes they come to fast to hit the changes and really say something melodic--it just sounds like "running changes." A fast take on the A section of RC would be an example...

Something that should be used as a melodic device, not a "crutch"

[princeplanet]

This kind of approach can work in many instances, especially over ii7-V7s, and can really free you up but I would caution against too much of this kind of thinking when dealing with more modern tunes, where "tonic vs dominant" just isn't sufficient or appropriate. There are mondo-long thread about this over at TGP, where Tag was the chief proponent of always thinking "tonic / dominant"......

Yeah, I like it sometimes when there is ambiguity, whether intentional or accidental. Sometimes hitting an 11th sounds "hipper" to me than the 3rd, even unresolved.... Depends on the context of the line of course Would love to read the TGP thread. How would I search for it over there? Do you remember the thread title?

[Spirit59]

Yeah, I like it sometimes when there is ambiguity, whether intentional or accidental. Sometimes hitting an 11th sounds "hipper" to me than the 3rd, even unresolved.... Depends on the context of the line of course Would love to read the TGP thread. How would I search for it over there? Do you remember the thread title?

I'm fairly positive that Tag's "tonic / dominant" stuff is buried in this monstrosity:
Scales?? Pretty much useless for improvising well. - The Gear Page

I'll check some more....

[Spirit59]

Here we go! Here's 2 more that are more direct:

Back when TGP was a little more edgy!


Joe Diorio teaches Tonic/Dominant! - The Gear Page

and

Someday My Prince Will Come Home To The Tonic! - The Gear Page

[princeplanet]

Great, thanks for that!

edit: (hours later)

So I had a bit of a read, unbelievable bickering aside, some interesting ideas put forward. Anyone else read these?

[mr. beaumont]

I did.

Looked like a guy who knew what he was talking about, but trying to cram it to fit into the content of a very short video that may or may not (likely not) have backed up his premise. Then a lot of people who had no idea what they were talking about fighting with him, a few who felt somehow that misinterpreting Diorio's words somehow tarnished his legacy, and a few intelligent posts that pretty much went ignored in favor of arguing with the OP, who seemed like the dangerous combination of both intelligent and a troll.

I certainly learned I never need to join over there, that's for sure.

[jayx123]

Are you talking about improvising using the key center approach?

[ColinO]

My take on the questions asked in the OP is this. You are asking whether it is possible to "skate over" changes. Yes it is and you will usually sound like you are skating over the changes. You can play the I arpeggio extended to the 13th and it will "work" over chords diatonic to the I because you are using all 7 notes in the major scale and will probably hit the chord tones of the chord you are on at some point in your solo.

Doing that kind of improv will not necessarily sound bad to most people, and may even occasionally sound good (even a blind squirrel might find a nut now and again) but most of the time will probably leave you and the audience feeling a bit empty or bland.

I would also agree that rock and blues players often are seen doing this but playing pentatonics a lot and turning off their brains. But GOOD rock and blues players regularly target chord tones in their improve and you can hear the difference when that is done. Most people can usually hear when a guy is going up and down a pentatonic scale mindlessly even in rock and blues songs.

Bottom line - to me a solo sounds better when you play the changes. Why not try and do that on every solo you play - unless you just want to noodle and that's fun too.

[princeplanet]

Are you talking about improvising using the key center approach?

Key centre, yes. But deciding whether the chord of the moment for the given key has either a dom or tonic function first, and only then choosing appropriate material, or "ambitonic" material - which I should add- is not random scale noodling but intentionally ambiguous intervals. You know, like quartal lines hitting 6ths and 9ths against the tonic will also sound "open" against Dom group of chords. Pentatonics have the same open, more "modern" sound (Herbie, Tyner etc).

[princeplanet]

Bottom line - to me a solo sounds better when you play the changes. Why not try and do that on every solo you play - unless you just want to noodle and that's fun too.

Hey, not looking for the magic silver bullet, gave up on that idea years ago

I think it's equally bland to alway spell out the changes too. Don't we like it when good players can "blur" a little for some tension or contrast?

[Spirit59]

I think it's equally bland to alway spell out the changes too. Don't we like it when good players can "blur" a little for some tension or contrast?

Yes.

Throw on Speak No Evil and listen to Wayne, Herbie and Freddy solo. What percentage of their solos really outline the chords? Not much. When you've got harmony that, is semi-non functional, you look for commonalities so you can play ideas that will go though the changes instead of outlining them all the time. If you take a chord tone approach on a lot of those tunes, you're going to sound like your jumping around too much. What made that harmony work in the first place is the voice leading used when it was written, that isn't in the Realbook, and often isn't in the recorded version either, because maybe WS just handed the guys a lead sheet with chord symbols and the head. I do know though, that on some of his tunes, there were specific voicings written out and *not* named...

[jayx123]

Key centre, yes. But deciding whether the chord of the moment for the given key has either a dom or tonic function first, and only then choosing appropriate material, or "ambitonic" material - which I should add- is not random scale noodling but intentionally ambiguous intervals. You know, like quartal lines hitting 6ths and 9ths against the tonic will also sound "open" against Dom group of chords. Pentatonics have the same open, more "modern" sound (Herbie, Tyner etc).

I think what you describe was my approach to improvisation for a long time (before I started working on targeting chord tones) which was: analyze the tune for the key centers and mark the dominant which are places to do "crazy" stuff (Triton, whole-tone, altered scale, pentatonic, side stepping) etc. I think this is a good approach only if you have good ears and you know the harmony well, because if you have good ears the ears will guide you to play the chord tones and extensions without you having to think about them.

[guitarplayer007]

Sounds like Cheryl Baileys style, she turns every thing into 2-5's

[JensL]

Yes.

Throw on Speak No Evil and listen to Wayne, Herbie and Freddy solo. What percentage of their solos really outline the chords? Not much. When you've got harmony that, is semi-non functional, you look for commonalities so you can play ideas that will go though the changes instead of outlining them all the time. If you take a chord tone approach on a lot of those tunes, you're going to sound like your jumping around too much. What made that harmony work in the first place is the voice leading used when it was written, that isn't in the Realbook, and often isn't in the recorded version either, because maybe WS just handed the guys a lead sheet with chord symbols and the head. I do know though, that on some of his tunes, there were specific voicings written out and *not* named...

That is such a swinging tune! Herbie really plays that so great! I guess the main harmonical idea is the Cm pentatonic on the Cm7 Dbmaj7 sound that is at least what they all seem to use.

To my ears both Herbie and Freddy are pretty clear in the changes except for the Cm7 Dbmaj7 chords, which Freddy plays Cm blues and Herbie plays all sorts of things including the changes. When the parallel minor chords are hapening they are both following and they both are clearly outlining the bridge, so in a way they are playing harmony on most of the changes in the song.

Jens

[Spirit59]

That is such a swinging tune! Herbie really plays that so great! I guess the main harmonical idea is the Cm pentatonic on the Cm7 Dbmaj7 sound that is at least what they all seem to use.

To my ears both Herbie and Freddy are pretty clear in the changes except for the Cm7 Dbmaj7 chords, which Freddy plays Cm blues and Herbie plays all sorts of things including the changes. When the parallel minor chords are hapening they are both following and they both are clearly outlining the bridge, so in a way they are playing harmony on most of the changes in the song.

Jens

Hi Jens,

Yes, I agree it's a great tune but I was actually talking about the album as a whole. And I think at the time I wrote what I wrote, I was hearing Fee Fi Fo Fum in my head. :-)

[JensL]

Hi Jens,

Yes, I agree it's a great tune but I was actually talking about the album as a whole. And I think at the time I wrote what I wrote, I was hearing Fee Fi Fo Fum in my head. :-)

I have no idea what you hear in your head, but I think that if you put on the cd you'll find that the analysis of the song "Speak no Evil" sort of goes for the whole album. Certainly for Fee Fi Fo Fum, where Shorter is even more moving with the harmony (but you kind have to in that tune not to sound really strange).

It would maybe also be a bit odd if out the blue they all started to play completely different on that album? they are all bop players and only Wayne is really moving away from that on "Speak No Evil" IMO.

And off topic: What a fantastic rhythm section! That makes my day every time!

Jens

[Spirit59]

And off topic: What a fantastic rhythm section! That makes my day every time!

Definitely! I never get tired of that album! Elvin Jones is so great at playing in 3 especially!

[bako]

Just as one can expand the harmonic palette by adding or superimposing additional chords we can also simplify it.
Tonic/dominant are in many cases the most fundamental events which make them good candidates for the process of streamlining harmony.
Music is movement, chord charts are not color by number blueprints to be filled in.

Try playing entire tunes against pedal tone of either V or I. Try playing to the basic changes, expanding them or simplifying in this environment.
Theory questions are often answered best through personal experimentation.

ColinO

Doing that kind of improv will not necessarily sound bad to most people, and may even occasionally sound good (even a blind squirrel might find a nut now and again) but most of the time will probably leave you and the audience feeling a bit empty or bland.

It is my belief that a blind squirrel will learn to rely on other senses to procure food or starve trying and that musicians experimenting with a concept will use their ears and good judgement in addition to praying for random accidents of sonic success. Over time they will learn how and whether to integrate an idea or not.

[princeplanet]

I agree with some of the comments above that daring to eschew chord outlines is something that can be done provided the listener/player has an acute sense of what "sounds right". As most of us aren't musical freaks that can do this with little training, I'm like many of you that have spent years shedding the changes, enough that I sometimes dare to "skate" from time to time, and hope that my playing is better for it. When it comes off, I feel some of my most free wheelin' inspired stuff comes out.

But like I've often thought - it's the years of discipline makes you a better "free" player. I mean, Eric Dolphy FFS!!

Oh, and I also agree that Speak No Evil is an amazing album, and I'd like to add that, despite the decades of acclaim, I still feel the Shorter is underrated! Even his early early stuff with Art Blakey- he kills me...

[jopheza]

I think melody is the most important thing. All the arpeggio approach notes, extensions and theory are only a means to make your ears aware of more melodic possibilities. Study, then put the music first. Think of what your listener hears, not what the musician theorises.