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I was wondering if anyone could give me a little insight into soloing over the chord changes of Naima.
I'm generally looking at all the slash chords by renaming it as the harmony produced (ex: Bbm7/Eb = Ebsus).
The trouble is when I get to the Gmaj7/Eb and I'm not really sure how to tackle it.
Any suggestions?
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11-03-2008 10:30 PM
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For Gmaj7/Eb check out the harmonic major scale.
G A B C D Eb F# G
So just a major scale with the 6th note lowered, cool sound and very Trane.
MW
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You could also use any Eb augmented triad arpeggios (Eb+, G+ or B+ or even a B maj triad). Superimpose them or string them before or after a Gma7 arp say:
G F# G B D# (Eb) F# G B D Eb G B for example. Might be a little easier to think of
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Thanks Matt and John - it was a big help.
Ok, so I have a few more issues with this tune. I'll just write out some of the chords and how I'm looking at them and maybe someone can give me a little advice:
Bbm7/Eb - Eb Mixo (no G)
Ebm7 - Eb Dorian
Amaj7/Eb - Eb Loc
Gmaj7/Eb - G Mel Maj
Bmaj7/Bb - Bb Phryg
Bb13b9 - Eb Mel Maj
Bm9(maj7)/Bb - not sure
Abmaj7/Bb - Bb Mixo (no D)
Gb13/Eb - not sure
Abmaj7/Eb - Eb Ionian
If anyone had any suggestions that would help me out a lot!
Thanks!
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Looks good, here's how I would treat some of those chords:
Bbm7/Eb = Bb Dorian, so there's no avoid note
Amaj7/Eb = A Lydian
Bmaj7/Bb = B major scale
Bb13b9 = Bb half/whole diminished scale
Bm9(maj7)/Bb = B melodic minor
Abmaj7/Bb = Ab major scale
Gb13/Eb = Gb mxolydian
Abmaj7/Eb = Ab major scale.
Matt
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Hey Matt,
Thanks again, I was always a little confused about looking at slash chords (especially this tune). I was shown two different ways of improvising over slash chords: one where you looked at the bass note as essentially the root (beginning of the mode) and the upper chord with respect to the bass note (ex: Bmaj7/Bb = Bb Phryg); the other where the bass note (or pedal) fits into the harmony (Bmaj7/Bb = B Maj). You seem to be leaning towards the second one, and that helps clear things up.
Evan
PS The Pat Martino book is great.
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yeah you can look at it in a number of ways, but even the example you give, Bmaj7/Bb=Bb Phrygian, could also be interpreted as Bb Locrian, which is B major. There's no right or wrong way to loook at these things just personal preference. The first thing I look at with a slash chord is is the bass note a chord tone of the top chord. Like Bb(A#) is the 7th of Bmaj7, this way I have to think no further. If it isn't then I see if it's an extension, like Gmaj7/Eb, Eb is the b13 of the chord so I would play a G major scale with the 13 flattened.
MW
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Just something I do in this tune on the Ama7/Eb and the Gma7/Eb.
I make them dominants and voice the Amaj7/Eb as Eb A C# G# which looks like a B13/D# (or F7#5#9)
and the G/Eb as Eb G C# F# Which looks like A13b5/Eb (or Eb7#9) Then the Abma7 (missing from your list)
Now you can use the B mixolydian and A lydian dominant these two scale are very close except one uses G# the other G nat. plus thinking of these as dominant 7ths rather than major 7th might point you in a direction you might not have otherwise thought of.
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Matt, I understand all the other chords and scale options you give but not in this one. First of all, what does half/whole diminished scale mean? Or what is it? And secondly Bb13b9 has a major 3rd, right? But I think that the diminished scale has a minor 3rd. Maybe the point lies in knowing what half/whole diminished scale means.
Originally Posted by m78w
Thanks in advance.
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Hey Claudi,
The half/whole diminished scale is built by alternating half steps and whole steps.
So over Bb it is
Bb B Db D E F G Ab
or
R b9 #9 M3 #11 5 13 b7
so you have the chords, R M3 P5 b7, and the extensions, b9, #9, #11 and the 13th.
So you have the b9 and natural 13th in the scale.
MW
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Hi, Matt!
I didn't know that in english it's called half/whole diminished. I knew it simply as the diminished scale. Ok, from now on I'll know we're talking about the same scale.
So, to go on with matter; I still haven't analyzed this scale too much though I can play it all over the fretboard (without knowing what I'm playing, to tell you the truth). I see it has a major 3rd (D) and a minor 3rd (Db). So wich is the correct one? Or can I take whichever at my convenience? I don't think so.
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The major third is the "correct" one, I would consider the minor third as a #9 instead.
MW
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It's a confusing scale, isn't it? Do you use it very often or just when you have a doubt?
What I still can't understand is why you consider the Db a raised 9th when D is the major 3rd.
Anyway, if Bb is the root then B is a raised 1st?
Ah, okay! The 2nd should be called Cb or C#. Maybe we should have given the name of Cb or C# to the 2nd. As I said it's confusing. Spelled the way you did we have two 1sts and 2 3rds.
.....
No really! I want to understand it because it's the only scale which I'm having these doubts.
Thanks for your patience. I'm not pulling your leg.
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Maybe it'll make more sense if we look at it in C.
C Db Eb E F# G A Bb C
Don't think if it as a scale all in a row, think of it as the chord:
C E G Bb - C7
and the extensions
Db(b9) Eb(#9) F#(#11) A(13)
I use this scale all the time, it's great over any 7th chord, especially over a blues or rhythm changes.
MW
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Hi again, Matt!
I've been thinking a little about this scale today. Some time ago I learned the scale formula as whole, half, whole, half, whole, half, whole, half.
Before you presented it as half, whole, half, whole, half, whole, half, whole. So, I realized you meant this scale proposing the root Bb and start by half, whole, etc...
I have another question: When we start the scale by whole, half...starting on C then we have a 2nd major, a 3rd minor, a perfect 4th and a diminished 5th (so far by now). No doubt here that the scale is minor and the chord has to be minor with a diminished 5th, right?
But now my doubt is that when we start the scale by half, whole...could it be used for a both major and minor chord of the same name and both with a diminished 5th or perfect 5th? As I asked you in another post can I choose it at my convenience or one of them will sound bad?
Thanks again in advance!
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Yeah, if you start the scale with whole/half/whole/half etc it's called the whole half diminished scale and is used over a dim7 chord, or dimMaj7 chord.
The best advice I can give comes from Miles, he said 'you can always play minor over major, but never major over minor". So that's why the b5 and b3 works over a major chord, BUT a major 3rd wouldn't work on a minor chord, and a Perfect 5th wouldn't work on a diminished chord.
Of course there are always exceptions to the rules, but this is a great place to start.
MW
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You might want to check out Bob Devoz doing Naima on Playing for keeps.
He does chording and solo. He doesn't use blinding speed, so it's learnable.
I haven't tried to learn the solo, but I will now. I think the best way to go about soloing is to learn what someone else is playing on the changes.
Learning scales is a good guideline, but hearing and playing the good notes are more important.
Larry
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Friends I am working since a long time on Naima using the sheet from the Aebersold. My analysis is the following
A section
Bb- (Bb dorian)
Eb- (Eb dorian)
B7+4 (B lydian dominant)
A7+4 (A Lydian dominant)
Ab major (Ab major, maybe lydian?)
B section
Bmajor (B major)
Bb7+11b9 (Bb superlocrian)
Bb7b9 (Bb superlocrian)
E7+4 (E Lydian dominant)
F- (F- dorian)
Gb7+4 (Gb Lydian dominant)
I would like to know if you share my analysis which to my ears (not really perfect…) work. Thank you.
Luigi
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Yes That's been somewhat standard. I usually hear MM mixed in with your Bb- dorian and pentatonics with the Eb-... and with the way most Jazz players use MM the chord symbols are really simply voicings, and any of them work... the Amaj7/Eb, B7#11 or what ever else you want to pull from F#MM and the same from any of the other MM chordal structures... pick your Root... most are over a pedal anyway. Also most of the majors move in and out between lydian. When you solo on this tune... I mean you move all over... It's not like you pick a scale and stay there... the tunes all about tension/release, not just harmonic tension... almost more of building then release. Very spiritual... and there in the end of the tune is the final big release... metaphorically of course. Originally Posted by luigi scatto
Just for reference, generally when you use analysis, your implying tonal and compositional references. Your choice of what to play, in your example, scales... may reflect an analysis. From your scales... II-7, V-7, bIII7 bII7, Imaj7, could be analysis of 1st four bars. But please don't take me wrong... I understood you just fine... just a terminology thing.
So Yes your choices are fine and I can hear. There just the start. If you listen to recordings from 59 and 60, I hear McCoy using lots of voicings... many are the Maj7s used in the latter charts... but neither McCoy or Coltrane seem to stay on one tonal center, more in the modal harmonic style of tonal areas...
There are obviously a few ways to approach the the tune... most don't play in same style as Coltrane... This is a cool tune to cover like the acoustic version, just play through the head and stay pretty straight... but to actually gig with this tune... you really need to have something to say, and with conviction. There's a lot going on... Reg
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dear reg, i understand perfectly what u say. It was for the time being necessary for me to have a frame and knowing that is correct. I know that there is not such a thing in music as right or wrong but i need to have a certain point of reference so to say. I share 100% your point of view. Naima is a wonderful song and has to played with a certain respect... thank you so much
luigi
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ooops another thought. i tend to extract some arpeggios from the scales I mentioned playing the most significant altered notes and chord tones which in my opinion and in my taste keeps more alive the feeling of the beautiful melody. unless I run out of ideas i hate to play scales up and down and i must say that i have always preferred the lyrical guitar players than those who play a lot of notes....
L.
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Sounds great... you should post a version of you playing tune... would love to hear. There's another thread where players pick a tune and then most of the players post samples of them playing over tune... It's great... you should get involved.... I have been very busy lately... or just lazy.... I haven't posted for a while... In another month, gigs will slow down... Reg
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Hi Luigi! One way that you might try to apply Reg's advice is to give yourself time to thoroughly investigate each harmonic environment that appears in the composition. You just need some way to reproduce each chord so that you can improvise over it for as long as you want. You could use a computer program (Cubase, Finale, Band in a Box, etc.) or just make a recording of yourself playing a chord on the guitar. But the idea would be to give yourself a nice long recording of 10 minutes or so of just the very first chord of the song. Then make another recording of the second chord. Make a third recording that alternates between the first and second chords, etc. Human beings always overestimate what they can accomplish in the short term. We think that there must be some secret scale or bit of theory that will allow us to play beautifully over a tune like Naima. But we also tend to underestimate what we can accomplish in the long term. Studying each chord one by one sounds like a lot of work so we assume there must be a better way. But if you just give yourself time to really get to know each sound in this composition, the confidence you gain will also serve you in every other tune you play. So take your time. Improvise over each chord and try every single note of the chromatic scale and notice for yourself how each note sounds. Nobody can tell you whether a particular scale will "sound right." You need to learn ALL the notes so that can use precisely the sound you want at each moment in your solo. If you can find the patience and the respect to dig into this composition as deeply as I'm suggesting, in a few months you will be able to play on that higher plane which is about expressing whatever you want to express in the moment, and you won't be so hung up on just keeping up with the harmony. So take your time and enjoy the journey.
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Wow. I just play the chords and let the bass player worry about those notes under the slash. I feel like such a slacker. The Real Book 5th ed. presents those as bass pedal tones, which offers an interesting way to analyze the tune from a harmonic standpoint. 4 bars of Eb something, 8 bars of Bb something, 8 bars of Eb something. How you think about those somethings is an interesting exercise.
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It seems like you are relating several chords to Eb. That's a good way to simplify. I like to relate them to Ab. Originally Posted by EDesa
Bbm7/Eb - Ab major
Ebm7 - Ab Mixo
B7/Eb - Ab minor
Amaj7/Eb - Ab major but a raised root. Same notes as A altered
Abmaj7/Eb - Ab major
Bmaj7/Bb - Ab minor
Bb7 - Ab Lydian
E7/Bb - Ab Locrian nat2
Abmaj7/Bb - Ab major
Gb13/Eb - Ab mixo b6
Dbmaj7 - Ab major
There were two chords above that are not on the ireal chart that I used. Gb13/Eb and Bm9(maj7)/Bb
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