How to build a jazz vocabulary?

[aniss1001]

Just wondering how you guys actually approach this.

I mean yes it's a matter of learning, playing and singing licks/phrases and understanding the harmonic context in which they fit etc.

But does this in itself help you build a jazz vocabulary? What else do you do with the licks/phrases in order to be able to use them in your solos?

Been thinking about this for a while and then I saw these videos on youtube (based on Bert Ligon's teachings) where this dude emphasizes that it is completely futile memorizing a lot of licks, so I thought I would hear your take on the matter...

[S_R_S5]

I don't claim to be a great jazzer, but I would agree and disagree with him. It depends on what he considers "whole phrases". If he means memorizing whole choruses and applying them to a different chord progression, then yeah licks are useless. I think learning licks to go over a 2-5-1 or licks over 1 chord is useful though. It is also useful to understand how he came up with his licks so that you can make your own. Metheny once claimed that 90% of what he plays has been played before. If this is true then he is using licks.

[aniss1001]

I don't claim to be a great jazzer, but I would agree and disagree with him. It depends on what he considers "whole phrases". If he means memorizing whole choruses and applying them to a different chord progression, then yeah licks are useless. I think learning licks to go over a 2-5-1 or licks over 1 chord is useful though. It is also useful to understand how he came up with his licks so that you can make your own. Metheny once claimed that 90% of what he plays has been played before. If this is true then he is using licks.

I don't think he means entire choruses/solos. I think he means licks (phrases). For instance 2-5-1 licks and whatnot.

[S_R_S5]

Then I disagree. Licks are needed or else you just run scales which is boring. Even if you hit 3rds to 7ths it will be mechanical.

[JensL]

I have not read the Bert Ligon books.

For myself I think I spent more time composing lines and practicing using melodic concepts than studying licks. The licks or transcriptions I use to analyze and find a concept, melodic idea or structure (arp, scale etc.) which I then practice using. I add these things to my vocabulary by composing/improvising in rubato and then put them to use in time on songs.

I never used a lot of time on learning licks.

Jens

[fep]

Aniss,

The study group is on a book all about this.

The thread is here:

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...rough-5-a.html

Check out the quote from the author at post #12

[monk]

The time honored method for acquiring vocabulary has been to copy solos from the players who came before. Note for note.

Then, as one builds a repertoire of solos, one begins to disassemble, transpose and rearrange the phrases and use them in other tunes.

It's always interesting to take two or three players and examine how they play on the same tune. It provides insight as to how different people approach the same situation.

[cosmic gumbo]

The time honored method for acquiring vocabulary has been to copy solos from the players who came before. Note for note.

There is no other method that will reward you more than this.

[brwnhornet59]

I think understanding the basic recipe (3rd, 7th, connecting notes and arps etc..) is a must in order to be able to dissect and grasp what you are doing when taking licks from recordings (something he said you should do in the 2nd video) and analyzing them so that you can internalize and recycle them in the myriads of possible combinations on your own. Doing the same with lines from books etc..will be the best way of learning to speak. So as always, I believe a combination of things are needed to ensure proper growth. Learning licks without understanding how they were made and why they were used, much less being able to take those intervallic ideas and adjust them diatonically to other inner relating chord phrases, becomes a useless endeavor unless you want to sound mechanical IMHO.

[aniss1001]

Hey thanks for the replies guys

I have not read the Bert Ligon books.

For myself I think I spent more time composing lines and practicing using melodic concepts than studying licks. The licks or transcriptions I use to analyze and find a concept, melodic idea or structure (arp, scale etc.) which I then practice using. I add these things to my vocabulary by composing/improvising in rubato and then put them to use in time on songs.

I never used a lot of time on learning licks.

Jens

Interesting approach. Been doing that myself some too but lately I have been focusing a lot on transcribing, learning entire solos, learning phrases, analyzing them and playing around with them.

Aniss,

The study group is on a book all about this.

The thread is here:

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...rough-5-a.html

Check out the quote from the author at post #12

Hmm.. Thanks.. But I'm not quite sure what to do with that particular quote

The time honored method for acquiring vocabulary has been to copy solos from the players who came before. Note for note.

Then, as one builds a repertoire of solos, one begins to disassemble, transpose and rearrange the phrases and use them in other tunes.

It's always interesting to take two or three players and examine how they play on the same tune. It provides insight as to how different people approach the same situation.

There is no other method that will reward you more than this.

I was lead to believe so too which is why for the last months my main focus has been on transcribing and learning phrases etc. It is also the reason I was rather confused by the statements in the clips I posted in the topic description. Any comments on that?

I think understanding the basic recipe (3rd, 7th, connecting notes and arps etc..) is a must in order to be able to dissect and grasp what you are doing when taking licks from recordings (something he said you should do in the 2nd video) and analyzing them so that you can internalize and recycle them in the myriads of possible combinations on your own. Doing the same with lines from books etc..will be the best way of learning to speak. So as always, I believe a combination of things are needed to ensure proper growth. Learning licks without understanding how they were made and why they were used, much less being able to take those intervallic ideas and adjust them diatonically to other inner relating chord phrases, becomes a useless endeavor unless you want to sound mechanical IMHO.

I agree. Simply learning phrases may not have the desired effect (not sure though?). I also analyze the licks phrases/solos I learn. Figuring out which (chord) are targeted on which notes. Cognitively speaking there isn't much to understand though (it ain't rocket science) and that in itself does not improve ones playing by much.

So I guess I'm wondering now HOW to PRACTICE this efficiently? I mean when learning a phrase how do you get the most out of it? After memorizing the it, playing it in different positions, singing it, figuring out which notes they are made of in relation to the chords, what else can one do?

Am I missing something?

[Nuff Said]

Create Melodies

Create Melodies over the chords in the song, in the Jazz style you like.

Really, really concentrate on being able to hear the melodies you are creating.

Nuff

[aniss1001]

Create Melodies

Create Melodies over the chords in the song, in the Jazz style you like.

Really, really concentrate on being able to hear the melodies you are creating.

Nuff

I agree that is a great exercise but where I am now I don't think it is what I need. The problem is that I've been playing other styles for years and jazz for a short time. So when I simply try to make melodies they are everything but jazzy.

This is why I'm focusing on building a JAZZ vocabulary by learning phrases and solos.

Hope that makes sense??

[brwnhornet59]

The problem is that I've been playing other styles for years and jazz for a short time.

Time on the instrument with the specific intent of speaking is the key at this point IMO. I am in the same boat as you, so I understand your plight. There comes a time where rudiments are learned and the understanding is there, now like children we have to learn to have conversations like the adults. It took us a few years to learn how to articulate what we meant with our own style as kids...This is very much the same thing..Hang in there, you are doing great....

[daniel89]

join my omnibook study group. learn many charlie parker licks and his phrasing. apply with your own ideas.

[monk]

I was lead to believe so too which is why for the last months my main focus has been on transcribing and learning phrases etc. It is also the reason I was rather confused by the statements in the clips I posted in the topic description. Any comments on that?

aniss,
I will try to answer the question you raised from my quote in your post.

I was lucky enough to attend GIT in the early 80s when Howard Roberts, Joe Pass, Ron Eschete, Joe Diorio, Carl Schroeder and Les Wise were on the faculty. I also had the opportunity to talk with Barney Kessel while I lived in Los Angeles. I got to know these men and asked them about learning how to play jazz which was my initial reason for attending the school in the first place. Every one of them gave me the same answer. "Learn the solos of the players you most admire." Each of them told me that was how they got started and what initially got them on the bandstand as working musicians.

Since then, I've met and talked with Jimmy Raney, Gene Bertoncini, Jack Wilkins, Larry Carlton and Bucky Pizzarelli. The heavyweights always give the same answer. So there must be something to it.

It was all about watching older guys play and listening to records by Django Reinhardt and Charlie Christian and Oscar Moore and Lester Young and Charlie Parker and Louis Armstrong, then learning their solos by learning to sing them or slowing the recording down. In interviews, Johnny Smith has talked about doing the same thing with Reinhardt solos.

As far as your confusion about the clips, I watched them as well as his other clips on YouTube and I think he's probably a nice guy who means well but I also think he could benefit from a bit more experience. He sounds to me like an intermediate player with a classical background who has taken an academic, book learned approach to jazz.

Having a website and offering free lessons and posting videos on YouTube is a path that a lot of younger players use to try to become more well-known.

The real pros, the ones with the real knowledge, who have their own teaching sites like Jimmy Bruno, Martin Taylor and Mark Elf as well as the players who teach at Mike's Master Classes such as Jack Wilkins and Sheryl Bailey aren't giving it away free. When you see a clip on YouTube from them it's a short teaser video to give you an idea of what they're offering.

I think that there's more to be learned from just one chorus of a solo from a master than from all the free videos on YouTube. One question you can always ask yourself when you see stuff like this is: "Is this really the way I want to play?". If it is, go for it. If not, go transcribe a Wes Montgomery solo.

Regards,
monk

[aniss1001]

@brwnhornet59 and @monk

Hey thanks for confirming this. I really do appreciate it

I remember some time ago I saw an interview with Pat Martino where he said the same thing. He said the most important things for him when learning to play jazz were 1) learning/memorizing a lot of solos from his favorites AND 2) simply playing WITH the guitar a lot.

So I will stick to my current rutine for now

@daniel89

I would like to but these days I am pressed on time. I may drop in from time to time though

[jster]

What if the players you most admire aren't guitarists? Is that better or worse?

[brwnhornet59]

My favorite players consist of few guitarists..I am a huge Evans, Corea, Jarrett, Rubalcaba fan as well as Miles, Garret, Dolphy and many other horn players.

I think there is nothing wrong with digging other instruments. In fact I think it shows a sign of maturity towards the Art to draw from players that do not use the same medium as we do. After all Jazz is made up of many influences and sounds.

@brwnhornet59 and @monk
Hey thanks for confirming this. I really do appreciate it

No worries my friend. Keep asking good questions. It is helpful to us all..

[mercosound]

Sometimes the obvious is the most enlightening - Lignon's "Connecting Chords with Linear Harmony" and Galper's "Forward Motion" are both kinda like that.

And then there are times, of course, when nothing is more fun than a hot lick...

[RonD]

What if the players you most admire aren't guitarists? Is that better or worse?

Same 12 notes.

[smokinguit]

I'm religiously following monk's advice. I have Bert Ligon's book which I feel is best used after you've transcribed enough solos from the masters. The way I do it is I pick a master each week and learn one of their solos from a song I'm learning. I play the solo and learn them by heart. I make them mine.

But there is a disclaimer to all this: you need to have solid ears and a decent understanding of theory so that the process can be a smooth one. I used to try transcribing without these skill set. I got much better and quicker at it when I started singing everything I hear and doing lots of ear training exercises.

[kris]

aniss,
I will try to answer the question you raised from my quote in your post.

I was lucky enough to attend GIT in the early 80s when Howard Roberts, Joe Pass, Ron Eschete, Joe Diorio, Carl Schroeder and Les Wise were on the faculty. I also had the opportunity to talk with Barney Kessel while I lived in Los Angeles. I got to know these men and asked them about learning how to play jazz which was my initial reason for attending the school in the first place. Every one of them gave me the same answer. "Learn the solos of the players you most admire." Each of them told me that was how they got started and what initially got them on the bandstand as working musicians.

Since then, I've met and talked with Jimmy Raney, Gene Bertoncini, Jack Wilkins, Larry Carlton and Bucky Pizzarelli. The heavyweights always give the same answer. So there must be something to it.

It was all about watching older guys play and listening to records by Django Reinhardt and Charlie Christian and Oscar Moore and Lester Young and Charlie Parker and Louis Armstrong, then learning their solos by learning to sing them or slowing the recording down. In interviews, Johnny Smith has talked about doing the same thing with Reinhardt solos.

As far as your confusion about the clips, I watched them as well as his other clips on YouTube and I think he's probably a nice guy who means well but I also think he could benefit from a bit more experience. He sounds to me like an intermediate player with a classical background who has taken an academic, book learned approach to jazz.

Having a website and offering free lessons and posting videos on YouTube is a path that a lot of younger players use to try to become more well-known.

The real pros, the ones with the real knowledge, who have their own teaching sites like Jimmy Bruno, Martin Taylor and Mark Elf as well as the players who teach at Mike's Master Classes such as Jack Wilkins and Sheryl Bailey aren't giving it away free. When you see a clip on YouTube from them it's a short teaser video to give you an idea of what they're offering.

I think that there's more to be learned from just one chorus of a solo from a master than from all the free videos on YouTube. One question you can always ask yourself when you see stuff like this is: "Is this really the way I want to play?". If it is, go for it. If not, go transcribe a Wes Montgomery solo.

Regards,
monk

+1
Jazzingly
Kris

[aniss1001]

What if the players you most admire aren't guitarists? Is that better or worse?

I doubt that one is better than the other. I would say different that's all. I mean guitarists do tend to improvise in a way that is quite different from eg. horns and saxes.

I personally play guitar because I like the sound of that particular instrument more than any other (double bass excluded). So naturally I listen to and transcribe quite a bit of guitar stuff. But I also do it with horns/saxes some.

TBO I'm not particularly fond of piano. To me it's a rather cold and mechanical sounding instrument and pianists often play too much IMO. I like more space. But I do have a weekness for Evans and Jarret. And piano players hands down often have a very developed grasp on harmonies/chords I think, so at some point I will definately do some transcribing of piano stuff.

Just a couple of thoughts..

[crimzon]

Listen to jazz standards and if you ever hear something you like transcribe it. Best way to increase vocab. because if you hear something that you particularly like chances are it is something that suits your playing style.

Thats what I do anyway, and I have seen interviews where a lot of the greats advocate a similar approach (Sco, Martin Taylor, Jim Hall)

[samrsmiley]

I completely agree with everything here. I wonder if the original youtube video may have gotten the information a little wrong? I can't imagine anyone saying learning vocabulary from the masters is futile... that's really bad advice. Like others have said, all the masters agree on this, but you have to know the history and lineage and vocabulary.

I wonder if the YouTube video 'star' missed something where Ligon is saying 'only doing this is futile without understanding of what's going on?' or something.

To the original thread started: I can understand the frustration of not sounding 'jazzy'. I think there's all great advice here-get really REALLY into the music and it will change your sound. It takes time though-there's not a trick or shortcut.

I had a student who struggled with this very thing. One summer he came back saying 'I've only listened to Coltrane and Wes over the summer." Guess what... he sounded like a jazz player!!