Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing - Thread Index

[znerken]

Well if you are wanting to play in the traditional straight ahead bop and some post-bop style...

Wes Montgomery and Joe Pass

Others, and in no particular order: Grant Green, Kenny Burrell, Jim Hall

There are several transcribed books on Wes (Steve Khan's book is a fave, but Wolf Marshall and others are out there too). There is now a Joe Pass Omnibook. Bottom line - lots of their great work is transcribed.


Just remember though, most of the material is advanced stuff, played by masters.

Jim Hall is someone I have copied a tiny bit of on autumn leaves. Great player!

Sorry for this question, you’ll probably hate it... but can you help me define pre bop and bebop? From what I have understood, the bebop is when people were tired of playing traditional jazz, which had like a simple form, and perhaps a tiny solo. Then they took it to a more advanced level with altered stuff and each player got to solo over the form. So it was less about dance music, and more about playing music. Am I onto something?

[Jazzstdnt]

Jim Hall is someone I have copied a tiny bit of on autumn leaves. Great player!

Sorry for this question, you’ll probably hate it... but can you help me define pre bop and bebop? From what I have understood, the bebop is when people were tired of playing traditional jazz, which had like a simple form, and perhaps a tiny solo. Then they took it to a more advanced level with altered stuff and each player got to solo over the form. So it was less about dance music, and more about playing music. Am I onto something?

Well jazz history or wikipedia (God forbid) can do a better job than I.

Pre-bop? I dunno. If that means swing, then OK.

Traditional actually means New Orleans, not swing.

Anyway, swing solos could be long too.

Bebop had more up tempo stuff. Bebop had tougher and more frequent changes and key center changes as part of that. More chromatics, more "flatted fifths". Less dance-able, less swinging but still swung. It was more sit down and listen music as opposed to get up and dance music. It took jazz from dance music to higher art, and shrunk audiences in the process.

[Reg]

Zenerken... you might want to post a clip of your playing... I can tell within a few seconds what you might want to work on.

Practice should be separated into a few categories...

Technical skills and performance skills... at least.

Your technique will control what your able to play. By technique I mean how you realize music etc... on the guitar.
The Guitar is not a piano or a sax.... technical skills are very different on every instrument. I play piano and sax... I suck but can read and know how the instruments work.... no chops etc...

What type of music you want to play is a musical performance choice.... again you can't play what you don't have the technical skills to play.
You might be able to rehearse... repetition, play it over and over and eventually get it out.... But that pretty much means... your technique isn't that good.

I use 3 notes per string sometimes... great for fast scale passages, licks, patterns etc... but they usually involve position changes...

Works with arpeggios going up OK with finger slides and again position changes... but descending usually sucks and I have problems coming up with consistent mechanical organization when playing music where the harmony has more movement. The transitions between fingerings involve position jumps... which leads to needing to stare at your fretboard...

You end up with having memorized licks... nothing wrong with that... But what do you do when you don't know the tune or music. I can play all kinds of music.... maybe my musical choices could be better, but my technique allows me to play at fast tempos and fake it well. I don't need to watch my fretboard... because I already have a default fingering system that allows me to play almost anything anywhere on the neck. The system is designed for the guitar and designed for basic musical organizations... any style. I still need to know and understand the style... But I don't need to redesign my fingerings.

You still need to work on three octave applications, contemporary and classical etc... but the transitions between positions are seamless. The basic 6th string, 7 positions and 12 fret repeating pattern is the same.

It's still just a system... but it works. I do also understand Music... well.

What don't you get from the simple PDFs....

[joe2758]

Zenerken... you might want to post a clip of your playing... I can tell within a few seconds what you might want to work on.
.

i highly suggest you do this

[znerken]

i highly suggest you do this

Rc4l9wf0fdr6.128 (mp3cut.net) - Instaudio

Here. I had my first jazz jam yesterday(except for when I play with my teacher). So this is my solo. Sorry if your ears bleed.

[Reg]

Hey znerken.... seeing is better... but ok... so your playing one scale and working with a few target notes within that scale... like most guitarist... noodling around developing a few rhythmic shapes and trying to keep the melody as reference for organization of shape of solo.... all good.

So the shape you were using sounded like Cmin pentatonic, with dorian and 3 notes per string thing.... rock and blues style pattern.....

So there are two things going on.... how your playing the instrument, the technical skills thing. And then what or how your going to create your solo.

So technically... the pattern is designed to have access to notes with relationship to a Min Pentatonic pattern... the result is... what comes out is basically one sound and one harmonic reference....your playing C- rock and roll and trying to work with the melody and get through the changes... It's a very vanilla sound..... Your playing C-.
I thought you sounded good... good time and there was feel. But there was basically no harmonic thing going on...

So that melodic approach is one way to approach soloing.... basically use the melody and embellish it, there are standard mechanical approaches for how to do that... melodically, harmonically and rhythmically. They are organized just like techniques and then there are standard ways to fit that application within the space... the shape and physical space of the tune... The Form. It's pretty old school and personally gets old fast.... unless your great player.... Great players can make almost anything sound great... because they have great skills etc...

So to somewhat expand what your doing.... using melodic targets, you need to expand the implied harmony or chords below that target, or use the space between the targets and use harmony to help create.... movement.

So musically this can be simple... just use the actual changes.... and pick a melodic line... ( really just a lead line which is on top, that you come up with)...

ex. use 1/2 notes, these are common boring examples of voiceleading lines... but you need to start somewhere...

#1... Eb / D / C / Bb / A / F# / G / G //
#2....Bb / A / A / G / G / F# / G / G //


Then use different rhythmic figures between the target notes from ex. #1 or #2 and and change the notes in those rhythmic figures to imply the changes. You'll find again different patterns that you like. And generally the common practice is to play something two times and then vary or change the 3rd time. Or some other rhythmic pattern which creates the perception of repeat.... which creates a feel or groove with movement. It will feel better.

In the above examples you could play three the same rhythmically and change the 4th and 8th...

And Technically you can use mechanical positions and fingering... of Chord or scale... chord implies... as source for rhythmical figure to connect the Targets.... The result of changing positions ... will naturally help organize melodic movement and articulations etc... somewhat a technical way to help you learn how melodic lines can change when changing mechanical patterns which imply chords. The goal would be to expand your collection of licks and figures that have melodic and harmonic implication.... your ears will get bigger.... and in the process you'll be expanding your technical skills of your instrument...

[znerken]

Hey znerken.... seeing is better... but ok... so your playing one scale and working with a few target notes within that scale... like most guitarist... noodling around developing a few rhythmic shapes and trying to keep the melody as reference for organization of shape of solo.... all good.

So the shape you were using sounded like Cmin pentatonic, with dorian and 3 notes per string thing.... rock and blues style pattern.....

So there are two things going on.... how your playing the instrument, the technical skills thing. And then what or how your going to create your solo.

So technically... the pattern is designed to have access to notes with relationship to a Min Pentatonic pattern... the result is... what comes out is basically one sound and one harmonic reference....your playing C- rock and roll and trying to work with the melody and get through the changes... It's a very vanilla sound..... Your playing C-.
I thought you sounded good... good time and there was feel. But there was basically no harmonic thing going on...

So that melodic approach is one way to approach soloing.... basically use the melody and embellish it, there are standard mechanical approaches for how to do that... melodically, harmonically and rhythmically. They are organized just like techniques and then there are standard ways to fit that application within the space... the shape and physical space of the tune... The Form. It's pretty old school and personally gets old fast.... unless your great player.... Great players can make almost anything sound great... because they have great skills etc...

So to somewhat expand what your doing.... using melodic targets, you need to expand the implied harmony or chords below that target, or use the space between the targets and use harmony to help create.... movement.

So musically this can be simple... just use the actual changes.... and pick a melodic line... ( really just a lead line which is on top, that you come up with)...

ex. use 1/2 notes, these are common boring examples of voiceleading lines... but you need to start somewhere...

#1... Eb / D / C / Bb / A / F# / G / G //
#2....Bb / A / A / G / G / F# / G / G //


Then use different rhythmic figures between the target notes from ex. #1 or #2 and and change the notes in those rhythmic figures to imply the changes. You'll find again different patterns that you like. And generally the common practice is to play something two times and then vary or change the 3rd time. Or some other rhythmic pattern which creates the perception of repeat.... which creates a feel or groove with movement. It will feel better.

In the above examples you could play three the same rhythmically and change the 4th and 8th...

And Technically you can use mechanical positions and fingering... of Chord or scale... chord implies... as source for rhythmical figure to connect the Targets.... The result of changing positions ... will naturally help organize melodic movement and articulations etc... somewhat a technical way to help you learn how melodic lines can change when changing mechanical patterns which imply chords. The goal would be to expand your collection of licks and figures that have melodic and harmonic implication.... your ears will get bigger.... and in the process you'll be expanding your technical skills of your instrument...

Thanks!

Well, I only played arpeggio and notes from the scale. I didn't touch a pentatonic, not on purpose. I aimed at chord tones, and tried to aim on the 3rd a lot. Like the melody does.

[Reg]

Hey znerken... I'm trying to help you... I know it feels personal, but if you want to get better, you need to be able to realize that maybe there's more to the music than what You hear. I'm on your side...

I understand you didn't play any pentatonic licks.... OK, But it sounded like ... the positions and fingerings your using are based on pentatonic fingerings. and the resulting playing from those positions have a default sound... Either C- or G- pentatonic patterns and playing scales... I did hear an arpeggio lick on the D7 Pedal feel in the middle ... but 95% of your playing sounded like you were using partial scales using Pentatonic patterns. There is nothing wrong with that.... I love pentatonic patterns. But it is generally not good for playing chord tone arpeggios or even just arpeggios in general..... Generally when one plays arpeggios... there is some reason... musically.... implying a chord to reinforce a melodic line... create chordal movement using melodic ideas... and the fingerings and positions are from chord shapes on the Guitar....or positions and fingerings that are more natural on the instrument to play arpeggios.


You did hit 3rds... yes like the melody does... the only problem with hitting 3rds... it's almost like your not really saying much.... your playing basic chord tones.... they, (3rds), in themselves.... are already played or implied. When one develop ideas around 3rd... if that's what you want to use for your targets... 3rds. The 3rds don't make great solo material... what you use and do to connect and create relationships around and with them, (the 3rds), is where you might use arpeggios and scales to develop solos....


I understand most teachers always say play chord tones etc.... but chord tones from basic changes... and are more of a learning process to learn how to understand whats going on Harmonically ... Arpeggios help create harmonic movement within your solo. Anyway....

From reading some of your posts on this and other threads... It seems like your looking for musical organization of playing on the guitar.... how to play the notes with physical organization which will help you be able to play Jazz.

Becoming aware of arpeggios....which are mechanical methods of implying harmony... chords, is part of that process. You need a method or approach... which becomes a skill or ability.... to play, use skillfully and efficiently... to be able to develop performance skills....using that very mechanical technique. It will become artistic etc.... but you need guitar based technique to be able to get to that point.

Sometimes it helps to learn how to comp before one solos... it helps develop harmony skills. Can you play the tune just using arpeggios with different patterns... 1 3 5 7 etc.... then 3 5 7 1 etc... or 7 5 3 1 etc... there are many choices to have fun with, help gets your ears and fingering together.

[znerken]

I 100% agree it sounds like rock and roll. Sorry if I came of like I didn’t agree. I just wanted to explain what I was thinking when I was playing. Yes, I am working very hard on arpeggios, and yes I do play the whole form through with using arpeggios, like you suggested. I guess what we can agree on, is that one can hear from my playing that I am a beginner. I guess that’s fair though, one can’t except anything else, when one is a beginner. I’ll try and record my next jam session in a month, perhaps you can listen if you hear some improvement? Thanks:-)

[mr. beaumont]

Znerken,

First of all, good on ya for getting out there and then putting yourself out here...that takes some guts.

In addition to Reg's harmonic advice, I might suggest to absorb some rhythmic ideas from jazz too, into your soloing. You sound a bit tentative--heck, maybe you were, that's understandable! But I think your lines would have come across better if they were more in pocket. My ears would generally rather hear "vanilla" lines played with great groove than more complex lines that don't.

Serious question, do you listen to a lot of jazz, and if so, who do you listen to?

[znerken]

Znerken,

First of all, good on ya for getting out there and then putting yourself out here...that takes some guts.

In addition to Reg's harmonic advice, I might suggest to absorb some rhythmic ideas from jazz too, into your soloing. You sound a bit tentative--heck, maybe you were, that's understandable! But I think your lines would have come across better if they were more in pocket. My ears would generally rather hear "vanilla" lines played with great groove than more complex lines that don't.

Serious question, do you listen to a lot of jazz, and if so, who do you listen to?

I should admit, that I haven’t been the best at listening to jazz. But lately, after I got interested in it for guitar, I have. So each month, I work with one standard. Daily, I do some transcribing of a solo I like for that standard. Yes, it takes a month to transcribe. Right now. That is Kenny Burrell on Jimmy Smith Bye Bye Blackbird. I have always liked a lot of miles Davis, and I also like the David Brubeck take five performance a lot, even before I played guitar. I also try to listen to the legends, at least I have stared listening now :-) I listen to Joe Pass, Jim Hall etc. Suggestions are welcome! I just came back from a run, where I had the Kenny and Jimmy Smith performance on repeat for 30 minutes.

[mr. beaumont]

Well, for groove, you are certainly listening in the right place.

I'd say, along with full transcription, get singing those lines, sing rhythms, play them on guitar...maybe not even playing the same notes, but play the same rhythm.

[gggomez]

Hey znerken.... seeing is better... but ok... so your playing one scale and working with a few target notes within that scale... like most guitarist... noodling around developing a few rhythmic shapes and trying to keep the melody as reference for organization of shape of solo.... all good.

So the shape you were using sounded like Cmin pentatonic, with dorian and 3 notes per string thing.... rock and blues style pattern.....

So there are two things going on.... how your playing the instrument, the technical skills thing. And then what or how your going to create your solo.

So technically... the pattern is designed to have access to notes with relationship to a Min Pentatonic pattern... the result is... what comes out is basically one sound and one harmonic reference....your playing C- rock and roll and trying to work with the melody and get through the changes... It's a very vanilla sound..... Your playing C-.
I thought you sounded good... good time and there was feel. But there was basically no harmonic thing going on...

So that melodic approach is one way to approach soloing.... basically use the melody and embellish it, there are standard mechanical approaches for how to do that... melodically, harmonically and rhythmically. They are organized just like techniques and then there are standard ways to fit that application within the space... the shape and physical space of the tune... The Form. It's pretty old school and personally gets old fast.... unless your great player.... Great players can make almost anything sound great... because they have great skills etc...

So to somewhat expand what your doing.... using melodic targets, you need to expand the implied harmony or chords below that target, or use the space between the targets and use harmony to help create.... movement.

So musically this can be simple... just use the actual changes.... and pick a melodic line... ( really just a lead line which is on top, that you come up with)...

ex. use 1/2 notes, these are common boring examples of voiceleading lines... but you need to start somewhere...

#1... Eb / D / C / Bb / A / F# / G / G //
#2....Bb / A / A / G / G / F# / G / G //


Then use different rhythmic figures between the target notes from ex. #1 or #2 and and change the notes in those rhythmic figures to imply the changes. You'll find again different patterns that you like. And generally the common practice is to play something two times and then vary or change the 3rd time. Or some other rhythmic pattern which creates the perception of repeat.... which creates a feel or groove with movement. It will feel better.

In the above examples you could play three the same rhythmically and change the 4th and 8th...

And Technically you can use mechanical positions and fingering... of Chord or scale... chord implies... as source for rhythmical figure to connect the Targets.... The result of changing positions ... will naturally help organize melodic movement and articulations etc... somewhat a technical way to help you learn how melodic lines can change when changing mechanical patterns which imply chords. The goal would be to expand your collection of licks and figures that have melodic and harmonic implication.... your ears will get bigger.... and in the process you'll be expanding your technical skills of your instrument...

WOW Reg that is so fantastic to take so much time to provide such a meaningful, insightful and learned view.

[znerken]

Hey znerken... I'm trying to help you... I know it feels personal, but if you want to get better, you need to be able to realize that maybe there's more to the music than what You hear. I'm on your side...

I understand you didn't play any pentatonic licks.... OK, But it sounded like ... the positions and fingerings your using are based on pentatonic fingerings. and the resulting playing from those positions have a default sound... Either C- or G- pentatonic patterns and playing scales... I did hear an arpeggio lick on the D7 Pedal feel in the middle ... but 95% of your playing sounded like you were using partial scales using Pentatonic patterns. There is nothing wrong with that.... I love pentatonic patterns. But it is generally not good for playing chord tone arpeggios or even just arpeggios in general..... Generally when one plays arpeggios... there is some reason... musically.... implying a chord to reinforce a melodic line... create chordal movement using melodic ideas... and the fingerings and positions are from chord shapes on the Guitar....or positions and fingerings that are more natural on the instrument to play arpeggios.


You did hit 3rds... yes like the melody does... the only problem with hitting 3rds... it's almost like your not really saying much.... your playing basic chord tones.... they, (3rds), in themselves.... are already played or implied. When one develop ideas around 3rd... if that's what you want to use for your targets... 3rds. The 3rds don't make great solo material... what you use and do to connect and create relationships around and with them, (the 3rds), is where you might use arpeggios and scales to develop solos....


I understand most teachers always say play chord tones etc.... but chord tones from basic changes... and are more of a learning process to learn how to understand whats going on Harmonically ... Arpeggios help create harmonic movement within your solo. Anyway....

From reading some of your posts on this and other threads... It seems like your looking for musical organization of playing on the guitar.... how to play the notes with physical organization which will help you be able to play Jazz.

Becoming aware of arpeggios....which are mechanical methods of implying harmony... chords, is part of that process. You need a method or approach... which becomes a skill or ability.... to play, use skillfully and efficiently... to be able to develop performance skills....using that very mechanical technique. It will become artistic etc.... but you need guitar based technique to be able to get to that point.

Sometimes it helps to learn how to comp before one solos... it helps develop harmony skills. Can you play the tune just using arpeggios with different patterns... 1 3 5 7 etc.... then 3 5 7 1 etc... or 7 5 3 1 etc... there are many choices to have fun with, help gets your ears and fingering together.

So Reg, I am trying to improve, and was wondering if you would care to take a listen to a sound clip over Bye Bye Blackbird? Am I improving in the correct direction? It's a lick stolen from Wes inside there and yes, also a short pentatonic, but it's okay to use a little pentatonic in jazz, isn't it? Most if it is arpeggio related, though.

[Reg]

Yes... better direction... could hear chords ... with cool pentatonic shape. There is an old Tpt player that teaches with that type of shape... Willie ? He uses that shape with blues feel and sound.... 5th 6th rt.....
Chord F6/9

C D F From F G A C D F pentatonic pattern. Old school but sounds great.

[znerken]

I wonder, to the attendees of the study group. The author recommends to read the last chapters directly before starting the book. In chapter 27, he writes:




Did you practice this daily from the beginning? Basically soloing four times over a II-V-I with the guidelines the author has written out?

[fep]

I wonder, to the attendees of the study group. The author recommends to read the last chapters directly before starting the book. In chapter 27, he writes:




Did you practice this daily from the beginning? Basically soloing four times over a II-V-I with the guidelines the author has written out?

I forgot that advice, it's good advice and is an easy way to construct a solo.

I took it as advice for solos in general and it doesn't apply to the connecting game over say a ii V I. After all you are suppose to play continous eighth notes when playing the conecting game which would make it impossible to follow that advice.

[znerken]

I forgot that advice, it's good advice and is an easy way to construct a solo.

I took it as advice for solos in general and it doesn't apply to the connecting game over say a ii V I. After all you are suppose to play continous eighth notes when playing the conecting game which would make it impossible to follow that advice.

Yes, I think he means to do it as an exercise by itself?

[znerken]

So I am getting ready to move on, and I am not quite sure I grasp what one should practice in chapter seven.

Before chapter seven, you are supposed to practice the connecting game in situation 1-4, through two different major and two different minor patterns. Five minutes for each situation. Are you now supposed to practice the exact same, and additionally practice it one more time, but with substitutions?

[znerken]

Also, this is probably a stupid question, but why does the author write the VII, III and VI arpeggio in minor with a flat sign in front?

[AlsoRan]

Also, this is probably a stupid question, but why does the author write the VII, III and VI arpeggio in minor with a flat sign in front?

I learned to stop answering questions long ago but to take a stab, my understanding is that the arpeggios he is giving are relative to the Major Scale. So, start with the Major Scale, and the make the appropriate notes flat to get the desired minor scale.

So when considering the minor scale in relation to the major scale, you have will have a b3, b6, b7 (at least in the natural minor). Does this jog your reckoning?

If not, just recall that the Major scale is R, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
While the Natural Minor Scale is ------- R, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7 and you would build arpeggios/chords off each degree

Hope this helps.

[Doublea A]

Is it too late to join you guys ?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I just saw that this thread is from 2012/2013 I guess I am 5 years too late.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[znerken]

At what point did you guys start seeing arpeggios on the fretboard clearly? I can easily play all of them, but being able to visualise them all in the heat of the moment, and especially connected, is a long term goal. How did you connect all of them? Especially the 5 different shapes of the same arpeggio. If you think major7, I would imagine the goal is to see all the notes from the arpeggios light up on the fretboard.



One exercise I like to do, is to play the arpeggio horizontally, and each time I move in to a new shape, I name it.

[fep]

Yeah they do sort of light up on the fingerboard. Certain forms are easier for me than others. As I recall, some of us posted examples of us playing the same arpeggio, say Gmaj7, up and down the fingerboard in all positions as one continous arpeggio. Being able to do that with all of the arpeggios (i.e. Maj7, dom7, min7, and min7b5) would be a good goal.

Eventually it all kind of came together (although I've regressed a bit from not continuing good practice habits).

[emiliocossani]

Good morning, my name is Emilio and I am from Argentina. I have tried to buy the book with the cd (tracks) but it has not been possible from my country. I got the book in pdf, but not the tracks. Could anyone be nice and share it with me? It is very important to me. Thanks a lot!