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Does anybody else get this same frustration that I get?!
I envy piano players so much - left hand coming whilst soloing makes everything sound much more organic - especially outside playing. Just the general sound of a piano and it's versatility is really starting to appeal to me...the one thing that I love about jazz guitar is chord melody ala joe pass, Martin Taylor etc but I find myself listening and envying great piano players like
Herbie, McCoy, bill Evans, keither Jarrett, Oscar Peterson etc much more than I listen to great guitarists.....I've been playing for about 9 years and I am starting to think that giving up on jazz guitar and starting to get to grips with learning jazz piano is the only thing that will satisfy my ears at the moment!!
Any advice? Or similar feelings from
Any of you guys?
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02-28-2012 12:28 PM
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Why not do both? One helps with the other, IMHO. I love piano too--especially because of the fact that for every guitar sheet music arrangement, there is a thousand piano pieces available. Great fun and very helpful for my reading chops. There's nothing I like better than to take an easy piano piece and try to sight-read it. My shelf is full of old piano sheet music that I got for very cheap at yard sales, eBay, etc. My 8-yr-old is starting too because of all the playing I've been doing. Guitar is my main thing but piano is in there too when I can find the time. For a jazz musician on any instrument, piano should be on the agenda.
Originally Posted by oleo20
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I think pianists are the inspiration for a lot of the chord melody work done by many guitarists. I think Bill Evans inspired his share of guitarists in a very good way that contributed to the growth of jazz guitar.
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There are some guitarists that can and do think pianistically, but I think it's safe to say many guitarists cannot be bothered. Guitarists don't give the same consideration to voice leading, even to moving inner voices smoothly through a progression, many guitarists seem to take comfort in familiar grips or grabs, and that is a killer for a pianist working with modern harmony.
I think it's an extra commitment but it can be done. There are certainly guitarists out there that think this way, but they're not among the genre stylists that you mention.
Maybe Mick Goodrick, Ed Bikert, Lorne Lofsky, Jack Pezanelli, Ben Monder are not in your list of role models, but they've all made the break from the traditions of that style of jazz. It's your decision, the means are certainly out there. Look at Johnny Smith's book too.
Have you studied a little Bach, chorales and such? Very helpful. You can also get some nice classical transcriptions of pieces by Debussey and Ravel. Learn what the guitar can do when you step outside of the grip approach and see if it's worth a change in your approach. If you want it, it's there for you to take!
David
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funny thing, this morning while listening to some jazz recording, this same thought came into my mind. How the pianists sounded almost effortless when they're doing their part. And I thought for a second how difficult playing the guitar really is. I know how to play the keys and all and also read piano sheets, and it's almost effortless compared to playing guitar. But I don't know.. There are somethings that make me love the Guitar more than any other instruments I've played. I love playing Guitar and I will never give up on it.
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I would like to play guitar like a piano but : Pianist envies organist, because he can play the low notes with his foot. A lot of pianist improvises with one hand. Piano is a percussive instrument and I prefer the guitar sound.
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I've been listening to a lot of Keith Jarrett's trio stuff lately and find myself thinking the same thing. The left/right hand independance he has is incredible, especially in the really fast improv. It's like 2 players.
But I like the guitar's challenges. I guess sax players might sometimes wish they could play harmony or whatever, but each instrument has it's own appeal.
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Absolutely stick with guitar and just start adding in some piano practice time. I think every jazz musician should be competent on the piano. But there's absolutely no reason to totally give up on guitar in your situation.
I'm right there with you in terms of envying piano players. I love how they can pretty much put on a show all by themselves by comping and taking a solo all at once. But you should also realize, a good guitarist can do the same thing. It's much harder, but on the road ahead of you, I'm sure you'll learn how to play solo guitar just like a pianist can play and comp for themselves.
Think about this though; pianists envy us sooooo much because changing keys for us just means moving your hand up one fret! They have to reconfigure everything.
In my graduate improv class, we had to play Donna Lee in all 12 keys around the circle of 5ths, one right after the other. Think of how much easier that is on guitar than any other instrument.
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Vic Juris is a master of playing piano type voicings on the guitar and has some books published by Mel Bay.
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Thanks for the info guys!
I'm definitely not going to give up on the guitar - I just need some exercises that help to break away from the whole typical shapes/grips/muscle memory licks etc
I've been playing my piano this evening and working my way through 2.5.1's in all keys, I also started playing about with some improvisation on a modal groove between Cmin and Fmin using Cmin pent and compared the simple lines I was playing on the piano and the typical thing I would play on the guitar......any guesses on which ones sounded better? (IMO of course) .... That's right the simple piano lines sounded much more organic and fresh. Maybe it's just my ears but it felt like I was actually making music on the spot rather than going through repetitive shapes etc probably down to the fact that I'm not a pianist and diving in at the deep end but I guess it all helps : )
Glad I'm not the only person to have this feeling ; )
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Since we're talking about piano, there's a cool little trick that anybody with some theory knowledge can pull off.
If you play all the black keys, you end up with 2 pentatonic scales; F# major or Eb minor.
You can pull off some really great sounding stuff and with very minimal concentration. Basically pick a root (F# for major or Eb for minor) for your left hand and then just blow away on the black keys with your right hand. After you're used to that, just add in some white keys that you wanna hear and you're in business.
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Barney Kessel quote from the "Great Guitars" album: "It takes three very good guitar players to sound like one very average piano player".
Ain't that the truth.
But we can play in different keys easier than they can, so it all evens out.
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Yea but they know what notes they're playing Originally Posted by coolvinny
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It'd be nice if we turned this thread into a kind of pros/cons for playing guitar vs. piano. There are really a lot of each for both instruments.
Guitar is extremely easy to play a melody in all 12 keys by learning just 1 shape and shifting your hand.
Amongst all common instruments, sight-reading is hardest of all on the guitar because you can play the same exact note in 4, 5, or sometimes even 6 different places. Piano definitely wins for that.
Guitars are portable, and therefore much more personal. I always hear how pianists hate that they have to constantly play other peoples pianos. There's something about being able to hold your instrument that I really love.
Piano wins in harmonic accessibility. If you're playing a C7 on piano and you decide you wanna add a 9th and b13th, you can just quickly add it on top. All of your options are sitting right there in the open. On guitar, you might be in a position where certain tensions aren't available, or you have to rely on shapes. That part really sucks.
Being able to play the guitar opens up the possibility to play a few different instruments (bass, ukulele, mandolin, banjo, lute, etc.).
Piano wins for the fact that you can easily play a melody in one hand and accompany yourself with harmony in the other hand. Of course it's possible to do this on guitar, but it takes a lot of practice and even then, you're still limited in terms of what's available near the melody notes. And accompanying yourself while improvising is just impractical.
Guitar players have a fun market to look into, with a bunch of different types of guitars, pedals, amps, etc., whereas pianos pretty much go as far as keyboards with patch libraries. Both can get a wide variety of sounds, but there's just something much more enjoyable about the guitar gear world. The fact that it exists is a pro, the prices are a con.
Anybody wanna add to the list?Last edited by bluewaterpig; 03-01-2012 at 11:47 PM.
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This can be a con in terms off spending time obsessing about gear and not playing. However, keyboard players might have a corresponding issue with programming synths and the whole gear thing would, I imagine, take off again if you are into virtual instruments on the computer. Originally Posted by bluewaterpig
Actually reading this thread reminded me that I must get my keyboard chops up to speed in terms of being able to play jazz progressions. I do some recording and having the ability to lay down some simple chords on keyboards is fairly essential.
Anybody have any links to resources to help learn simple jazz comping chords on piano? (or is that not a request I should put on a jazz guitar forum?)
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Well, I think as long as you want to play guitar but sound like a piano, you are going to be frustrated. :>)
The guitar has different strengths than the piano, some of which are mentioned above. It can be a better melodic instrument, and in some ways also a better rhythmic instrument. But its harder to play multiple parts simultaneously (although not impossible - look at Martin Taylor, or Charlie Hunter). And in general you can't have as much density (number of notes at the same time).
Some things that are easy on piano are difficult, or impossible on guitar. Even if you could play them, it might sound pretty "unnatural." On the other hand there are things that are relatively easy to play, and idiomatic, on guitar, that don't make sense on piano. And with guitar you have a much greater choice of how to get the sound, by your attack and where on the neck you play... and that's just acoustically; with electric guitar the choice gets even wider.
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Some pros:
- With a guitar you can put much more feeling in the tone when playing a blues by using bends, slides, pull offs, hammer ons or vibrato.
- You can't use a piano as a percussive comping instrument like a guitar in styles like funk and bossa nova.
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Ever hear a prepared piano, as in John Cage? I'm just busting your balls of course, but honestly, some of the sounds you can get by stashing some items inside a piano lid are funkier than guitar. Originally Posted by Franklin52
We just had a grad student put duct tape across the strings inside a piano and it produced one of the funkiest sounds I've ever heard.
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Well, at least the load-in is easier for us. Anytime I start feeling sorry for my situation I watch the keyboard player schlepping his gear and then I don't feel so bad.
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That's one of the reasons I gave up playing cathedral organ. Having a stone cathedral built in these times is no easy task. I have to wait 80 years just to have my axe set up right, and then the break down is unbelievable! Originally Posted by jasonc
Well, at least the load-in is easier for us. Anytime I start feeling sorry for my situation I watch the keyboard player schlepping his gear and then I don't feel so bad.
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Not to mention that, by the time it's set up you forgot all the tunes.
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I think the real problem is guitar pedagogy versus piano pedagogy.
With piano, you have work of hundrends of years to rely on,
and electric guitar... doesn't really have a serious method (atleast not a famous one for harmonic playing, fully utillizing the guitar).
Try playing some bach, try improvisation using intervals and counterpoint. You'd suprised it's not as hard as you might think...
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Guitar Vs Piano
Death Cage Match
Fight
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damn you automatic filter for all caps
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Was that a joke? Originally Posted by jasonc
Well, at least the load-in is easier for us. Anytime I start feeling sorry for my situation I watch the keyboard player schlepping his gear and then I don't feel so bad.
Most often, the gig already has a piano so they don't have to carry anything but their music.
If they play an electric keyboard, it's just the keyboard and an amp...pretty much exactly the same as us.
The only piano instrument that would be worse than guitar would be an actual organ or maybe a Fender Rhodes, but 9 times out of 10 they'll use a nice keyboard to produce those sounds. A Nord is all I would ever need to gig.
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