Ideas for jazz guitar solos (modes and scales)

[p4chuss2]

Hi,

I am bit confused and stuck with jazz. So any help would be really appreciated. The thing is that I am learning the modes and scales but I don't know where to get new ideas for those learned scales.

Transcribing a song or learning a note by note would be a good starting point in rock or blues, but in jazz it's far too complicated for me (too many chords, scales, etc.).

I am trying to learn the Dorian mode right now. I know the positions, fingerings, etc. but I am stuck with no ideas on how to use the mode.

There are for example guys in youtube showing their ideas using the Dorian mode like:

Are there any recommended guitar solos (jazz, fusion, rock, etc.) you know I can try to transcribe to get new ideas from them?

Or what do you recommend me for getting new ideas? I am really stuck and my modes / scales sound really like scales up and down. No jazzy, no ideas.

That happened to me when learning the blues with the pentatonic scales, but listening to blues musicians helped me and transcribing or reading tabs for those blues solos helped me. I am still not sure this would be the good way to do that, but that helped me. As I said before, that would be too complicated for me with jazz solos since there is a lot happening there which would take me months to understand... (mixing chords, scales, etc.)

Thanks a lot for this website. It is really a great source of information and I feel closer to other jazz people where I can learn from since I don't have any friends trying to learn jazz...

Thanks!!

[marcwhy]

I recommend getting a good teacher. I don't know where you are geographically, but if there's no one local, then consider one of the better "online" programs like Jimmy Bruno, etc. [Note: This is NOT a plug for Jimmy, and I do not work for him]

And have fun!

[mr. beaumont]

I assume if you're dipping into modes you have exhausted the possibilities of arpeggios/chord tones while playing changes?

[NSJ]

1. Here's a quaint idea: what does the actual tune, the melody say to you?
2. How would a drummer think about and navigate through the process?

[p4chuss2]

I recommend getting a good teacher. I don't know where you are geographically, but if there's no one local, then consider one of the better "online" programs like Jimmy Bruno, etc. [Note: This is NOT a plug for Jimmy, and I do not work for him]

And have fun!

Thanks marcwhy! Getting a teacher is what I really like but unfortunately I cannot afford it. But as I said, thanks a lot for your reply. I appreciate it.

[p4chuss2]

I assume if you're dipping into modes you have exhausted the possibilities of arpeggios/chord tones while playing changes?

Hi Mr. Beasumont. I appreciate your answer. I have read a lot of posts where you mention somehow your "dislike" the learning modes and you like the arpeggios instead (sorry for my english). What I really don't understand quite well is, if you learn the modes, you are actually learning the arpeggios don't you? I am confused about it. But if you can identify the 1 3 5 b7 (for example) in a mode/scale, then you can play the arpeggio, right? I am not trying to say that you are wrong in any way, I am just trying to understant.... By the way I feel honored having you answering my question

What would you do first? Learning arpeggios and then the modes? While playing the arpeggios in a song I also find myself out of ideas...

Thank you very much for your answer Mr. B. I am not sure to understand how you would practice.. thanks!!

[JensL]

Try to listen to and transcribe Miles Davis solo on So What, that's dorian and it is harmonically and melodically a very strong solo.

Wes Montgommery recorded impressions which is the same two dorian sounds, maybe try to check what he does. I am sure there are lots of other recordings of those songs..

They are two very good but also very different approaches.

I also suspect that part of what you might feel is missing in you melodic vocabulary is that when you hear people play solos in jazz they are playing moving changes rather than one mode. Another thing might be chromatic ideas that are not included in the mode but are a part of the traditional jazz language.

Jens

[mr. beaumont]

Hi Mr. Beasumont. I appreciate your answer. I have read a lot of posts where you mention somehow your "dislike" the learning modes and you like the arpeggios instead (sorry for my english). What I really don't understand quite well is, if you learn the modes, you are actually learning the arpeggios don't you? I am confused about it. But if you can identify the 1 3 5 b7 (for example) in a mode/scale, then you can play the arpeggio, right? I am not trying to say that you are wrong in any way, I am just trying to understant.... By the way I feel honored having you answering my question

What would you do first? Learning arpeggios and then the modes? While playing the arpeggios in a song I also find myself out of ideas...

Thank you very much for your answer Mr. B. I am not sure to understand how you would practice.. thanks!!

I definitely am not anti mode...I know them and use them. But I am anti mode for folks trying to start out with jazz...I think using the modes creatively is an advanced technique.

With arpeggios, the melody and harmony of the tune are easily linked...to me, it's not about finding a scale to play over a chord...to me, the chord gives the information needed...then you can visualize the chord tones, and the "color" that lies outside of them.

In the end it's different maps to the same destination. I just feel like diving into modal thinking is often an unecessary complication of things for a jazz beginner. And you can play just about all jazz up to 1959 without any modes, which in my opinion, is the place to start-- even if the end goal is to play post bop or modal jazz styles.

So as far as how i'd practice...there's lots of different ways...the end goal should always be a melodic line...if you are just playing arpeggios or scales of course you'll run out of ideas.

One way I'll shed a tune is to start my arpeggios going up on the first chord, then descend on the next. I'll pllay arps up and descend chromatically to the next chord tone, then back up again with the arpeggio for the next chord. But that's just practice...the idea is to really ingrain what the harmony of the tune sounds like...then I can start to work with real melody. By this point I can hopefully hear and visualize the chord changes...then I can hope if I hear my melody moving up or down, the visualized arpeggios give me a pool of strong notes to continue my melodic line on.

I guess this is all a long way of saying that arpeggios, in my opinion, remove the middleman.

[whatswisdom]

I am really stuck and my modes / scales sound really like scales up and down.

You have the first step. 2nd step: get your modes/scales to sound like arps up + down, i.e, learn the arps of each mode until you can sing it. 3rd step: grab a lead sheet and run the changes via arps & scales. So What; Autumn Leaves; Satin Doll, etc. Keep with easier tunes and stay with chord tones. 4th step: analyze and/or transcribe a solo. There are many more steps on the eternal journey--but these will set you straight. No matter what step you're on, make sure to LISTEN to great jazz, all the time...

[MaxPicks]

Sing a solo [however badly you might sing], record it, then work it out on the guitar. IOW, play what you hear.

[JonnyPac]

Elaborating on "stock" outlines is always good. It gives you a context for the arpeggios (chord-tones) found in the modal palettes. Try this stuff out:

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...c-devices.html

[JakeAcci]

Elaborating on "stock" outlines is always good. It gives you a context for the arpeggios (chord-tones) found in the modal palettes.

Yes, this is a good way to put it. There are certain idiomatic principles to playing "jazz" vocabulary, and hearing these are far more important than knowing scales - or even arpeggios.

Personally I think it's best to try to grab a lot of these by ear and even singing them, to have the sounds internalized (or at least familiar) before even starting to play them on the guitar

[marcwhy]

Thanks marcwhy! Getting a teacher is what I really like but unfortunately I cannot afford it. But as I said, thanks a lot for your reply. I appreciate it.

Cool. I think it's only about $20/mo ... hard to beat. Same with Andreas O's online school ..

[NSJ]

Sing a solo [however badly you might sing], record it, then work it out on the guitar. IOW, play what you hear.

BINGO. We have a winner. As my teacher says, "if you play the way you sing, you can never go wrong".


You have to be able to sing those notes, and then be able to INSTANTLY find these notes on the guitar.

Or as the erudite author of "Forward Motion", Hal Galper, declared, "you may think the problem is that you can't play what you hear. In fact... the problem is that...you. are. playing. exactly. what. you. hear"

If you can't say anything interesting in your solo, it just means your hearing/singing is NOT VIVID enough.

Lately, I've put my guitar down and just gone over to the piano and tried to sing along with it.

I love the Dizz story he tells to Mr. Galper, wherein the esteemed bebop trumpeter says, "sometimes, people ask me, 'Mr. Gilespie', what goes in your mind when you're playing?'. And I answer, 'well most people think I'm just going "do-do-bee-bee-bop" In fact, I'm actually going 'DO-DO-BEEEEEE-BEEE--BOP!"

[JonnyPac]

I love Galps. Forward Motion is a great book!

[aniss1001]

I tend to agree that scales has a rather limited effect when learning to play changes. I practiced quite a lot of scales when I was young way before I started playing jazz. Thought that would help me but it didn't. I practically stopped practicing scales now. I focus on arpeggios, eartraining, transcribing and building a vocabulary (learning licks I like in all positions). It seems to work for me atleast.

Now if you don't know your scales at all I think you should keep practicing them a bit. But not too much. The things I mentioned are more important I think.

A couple of other things that seriously helped me getting started which I don't understand why people don't mention more often.

1) Learn the basic chord inversions. Try to relate each one with arpeggio (and scale) positions.

2) Once you have gotten the basic arpeggio shapes into your fingers do the socalled "connecting game". Take a jazz standard and go through the chord progression playing the arpeggio of each chord. When the chord changes try to start the next arpeggio on the note closest to the last note of the previous arpeggio thus connecting the lines.

Anyway that is my 2 cents...

[p4chuss2]

Thank you very much Jens! I try to move through the changes, if by "moving" means changing every scale/mode for each different chord. But there happens two things:

1) I get lost
2) I feel like playing the scales or arpeggios without ideas

Do you suggest me to write down my solo and try to play it instead of trying to improvise it?

[p4chuss2]

Thanks NSJ.

[p4chuss2]

Thanks Mr. B, I will do that!! Will practice arpeggios up and down for that harmony several times until I got it. Any books you particularly recommend for learning that? Thanks!

[JensL]

Thank you very much Jens! I try to move through the changes, if by "moving" means changing every scale/mode for each different chord. But there happens two things:

1) I get lost
2) I feel like playing the scales or arpeggios without ideas

Do you suggest me to write down my solo and try to play it instead of trying to improvise it?

That's perfectly natural. I guess it's a bunch of hard work
There are a few ways to approach this, but heres' one:

It might be useful to start with something like a turnaround or two chords. For know let's just take |F7| Bb7|. You could take other chords or part of a song you play, it is not that important, only try to make sure that it is not the same scale for both chords.

You want to feed your ear right information so you don't get lost and you want to play the changes clearly. You do that by playing chord notes on beat 1 of the change (and/or beat 3 if there are more changes in the bar)

Play A on F7 then Ab on the Bb7.

Try to compose a few licks that contain notes from the F7 and which ends on the note Ab. Keep it simple and play only 8th notes that way you are practicing feeling the subdivision of the song and are also helping to avoid getting lost.

Get used to playing them in time with your licks that move from F7 to to Ab on Bb7 (on the 1) that way you hear the change.

When you can play a few lines in a slow tempo start to vary the melodies but still aim for the Ab on the Bb7 (for know you don't need to play anything else on the Bb7 chord.)

What you are practising is composing clear lines and in from the material you compose you should end up with building blocks for soloing.

Repeat the proces going from Eb on F7 to D on Bb7. Try other changes.

I am ignoring your 2nd point because you will in the beginning feel restricted buy the changes so that it does not feel like soloing on one chord, that's perfectly ok and part of the process. Once you get better at composing lines and put some hours (or months? years?) into it it'll get better.

Sorry for the loooong post..

Jens

[p4chuss2]

Thanks whatswisdom! Sounds that this is the way you recommend. Very clearly explained and motivating (don't know why, but sounds motivating, like I am on my way). Arps up & down, sing them... thanks!

[p4chuss2]

Will try that too!! I am really really a bad singer, but will definitely try that. Thanks!

[p4chuss2]

And you can play just about all jazz up to 1959 without any modes, which in my opinion, is the place to start-- even if the end goal is to play post bop or modal jazz styles.

Why is it that you say up to 1959? What changed after that? What songs would you recommend me to start up with? Thanks!

[p4chuss2]

Elaborating on "stock" outlines is always good. It gives you a context for the arpeggios (chord-tones) found in the modal palettes. Try this stuff out:

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...c-devices.html

Whoow, thanks JonnyPac!! I started reading it but now I need my guitar to try the examples. Thanks a lot for the contribution!! A lot to learn!! Thanks!

[p4chuss2]

Yes, this is a good way to put it. There are certain idiomatic principles to playing "jazz" vocabulary, and hearing these are far more important than knowing scales - or even arpeggios.

Personally I think it's best to try to grab a lot of these by ear and even singing them, to have the sounds internalized (or at least familiar) before even starting to play them on the guitar

Thanks JakeAcci. How would you practice it?