Giant Steps

**brwnhornet59** · 10-14-2011, 02:24 PM

I have been following this cat for awhile. I really dig him. Check out his approach to impov on GS.

**FatJeff** · 10-14-2011, 02:30 PM

Yeah, I watched that video several months ago - probably premature - I need to go see it again!

**brwnhornet59** · 10-14-2011, 02:37 PM

I just signed up to his new site. Jamie Abersol has a niche there as well.

It's crazy, the dude's 80 and is kind of flaky but I really like him a lot!! He is no slouch either.

Jazz Everyone | Home

Here is the link to his site if you are interested.

**jster** · 01-19-2012, 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

Definitely! I find the first thing is just simply playing the changes as straight as possible. Damn hard to get through the tune at a fast tempo with anything other than that in mind, at least initially.

I wanted to re-open this discussion. I am just using this quote as a reference. What are we doing when we play the changes "as straight as possible"? I have two+ arpeggio patterns that I can play pretty (damned) quickly. One sounds lame. The other sounds pretty strong for a climactic chorus. And I am going to work on the motives (motifs?) that have the 2 in them. But I have a couple of questions:

1) Are there any standard strictly arpeggio patterns that I should work through?
2) It seems somewhat mechanical to stick to a pattern, even with fast tempo, even if it is a motive/f. I feel like I was kinda lucky to stumble upon something that sounds strong. Are patterns legit outside your house?
3) How do I get from patterns to something more spontaneous?
4) Should I memorize Trane's solo?

In other words, I am really happy with my progress, but I need to step it up several notches over the next year.

**whatswisdom** · 01-20-2012, 02:31 AM

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

the dude's 80 and...I really like him a lot!! He is no slouch either.Jazz Everyone | Home

What's the word, B? Have you done much on the site? I just checked out the overview. I like the dude too. Don't know if I'll have the time to devote but it looks the biz to me...

**wolflen** · 01-20-2012, 01:22 PM

i learned it and teach it in sections..

the first 5 notes/5 chords then add 2 bars at a time..in as many keys as possible..the speed thing is not part of the study..so getting it down at a slow or moderate tempo until it becomes integrated in your playing..and you can play the first five notes in some of your solo work without strain..which should not be hard to do as it is a descending MA7 arpeggio and a flat 3rd note..

the discovery of symmetric harmony should be the main point of the study..seeing how intervals of a major 3rd can work in different harmonic settings..using augmented scales along with the main melody notes makes this melody open up to many melodic and harmonic ideas..

so for me learning giant steps is not the end goal. its a spring board into symmetric harmony applications-thinking/playing in several keys at once .. and melodic movement using wide intervals..

play well

wolf

**brwnhornet59** · 01-20-2012, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by whatswisdom

What's the word, B? Have you done much on the site? I just checked out the overview. I like the dude too. Don't know if I'll have the time to devote but it looks the biz to me...

I follow the site and the posts. I do not have the time to dedicate to it at the moment, but I want to. It is a great group of teachers. They have their act together and they are on their game.

**JakeAcci** · 01-20-2012, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by jster

I am just using this quote as a reference. What are we doing when we play the changes "as straight as possible"?

Chord tones on strong beats, simple rhythmic figures - trying to get through the whole thing with only 8th notes, and chord tones on the beat the chord changes is a good idea in my mind to get to 'playing the changes'

Great advice above about not going for speed - nail the concepts at accessible tempos and the speed does come easier rather than constantly trying to push against the ceiling.

**JakeAcci** · 01-20-2012, 04:39 PM

Additional thinking out loud here, some stuff I have done at least a little of

1) Are there any standard strictly arpeggio patterns that I should work through?

A great and simple approach - take a 4 or 8 note theme in Coltrane's solo and see if you can (even if very slowly) adapt that theme through out a full chorus. Then try it with a different theme, or make up your own. The point is consciously trying to connect the chord changes with a simple motif or contour...good to do with just 8th notes, IMO.

2) It seems somewhat mechanical to stick to a pattern, even with fast tempo, even if it is a motive/f. I feel like I was kinda lucky to stumble upon something that sounds strong. Are patterns legit outside your house?

Unfortunately I think the listener can only take so much repetition. Coltrane's solo (on Countdown as well) had a ton of it, but

a. the tempo and business of it alleviates the boredom, at least for me
b. there still was enough variety that he actually had material to burn through the whole form without stopping. It sounds like you have an idea or two, but not enough to get you through 10 choruses.

I don't feel motivated enough to do it now, but it would be interesting to look at the transcription and see just how many "different" patterns Trane was employing. It was more than 2, but less than a hundred...

3) How do I get from patterns to something more spontaneous?

I Trane's approach was to get to a point where he'd get to the D7 and not think "what are four notes I could play for D7" but rather have maybe a half dozen (or less) four note sequences to fill up those two beats of D7, and he'd shed those sequences until they were automatic. It still is spontaneous - the chords are always changing, just instead of 'which note am I going to play' the question is more 'in these two beats, which pre-arranged sequence am I going to play' which is, in a sense, 4x less to think about. Hope that makes sense.

Also, this is just speculation based on what I see in his solo and that of Countdown, talking to other people about the tune and about uptempo playing in general, and practicing the tune myself. Just thoughts, not confirmed historical fact about Trane's approach.

This isn't exactly on topic, but similar enough to share: Jazz Bulletin Board - View Single Post - Any Magical Tips For Playing Uptempo Bebop?

Really good food for thought. I practiced that stuff a bit and found it helpful even though I wasn't able to really devote a ton of time to it.

(That's a post by the same author of the blog I recently made a thread about: Jazz Science | Practice Ideas From the Woodshed )

4) Should I memorize Trane's solo?

Again, just my opinion, but I think your time would be 10x better spent taking thematic material from the solo and forcing yourself to come up with as many variations as possible to fit over different parts of the tune.

Now, learning or skimming the whole solo is good to get the theme of his approach, but life is short and if you want to get comfortable with the tune, I think that diving straight into improvisation-based practice is more fruitful.

**pingu** · 01-20-2012, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by Nuff Said

I agree, the tempo is the killer, its a great tune, for the progression I also think Majors in Major thirds.

Nuff

could you elaborate on this a bit ?

**jster** · 01-20-2012, 08:58 PM

Thanks so much Jake. That helps a lot. And those links, especially the first, are good too.

Man I wish I had the internet a zillion years back when I was practicing 10 hours a day. I had a real book, Berklee 1-3, a duet book, some big chord book, and a teacher with major issues. What a nut job he was. Berklee grad actually. lol. I'm actually pissed as I write this. So many freaking resources. No mysteries. But now so little time. I'm quite content never having become a pro, but I would have devoured all these things you guys post. 12 hours a day a lot of the time. Now it is 30 minutes while I'm waiting for her to get dressed. If I ever hear a young musician whine, I'm just going to say shut up kid you had the internet forums.

**JakeAcci** · 01-20-2012, 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by jster

Thanks so much Jake. That helps a lot. And those links, especially the first, are good too.

Man I wish I had the internet a zillion years back when I was practicing 10 hours a day. I had a real book, Berklee 1-3, a duet book, some big chord book, and a teacher with major issues. What a nut job he was. Berklee grad actually. lol. I'm actually pissed as I write this. So many freaking resources. No mysteries. But now so little time. I'm quite content never having become a pro, but I would have devoured all these things you guys post. 12 hours a day a lot of the time. Now it is 30 minutes while I'm waiting for her to get dressed. If I ever hear a young musician whine, I'm just going to say shut up kid you had the internet forums.

Great, glad I could be helpful.

A lot of people graduate Berklee...I think at this point it doesn't mean all that much.

**bako** · 01-20-2012, 11:02 PM

http://www.music.sc.edu/ea/Jazz/tran...STEPSscore.pdf

Heavy lifting already done, courtesy of Bert Ligon for anyone inclined to analyze the motivic content of Coltrane's original solo.

**JakeAcci** · 01-20-2012, 11:11 PM

Originally Posted by bako

http://www.music.sc.edu/ea/Jazz/tran...STEPSscore.pdf

Heavy lifting already done, courtesy of Bert Ligon for anyone inclined to analyze the motivic content of Coltrane's original solo.

What a cool way to present the transcription, thanks for that.

I really gotta get that darn book of his.

**augusjazz** · 01-20-2012, 11:40 PM

For me it is a very difficult song, because I want to come play it improvising, not liks memorized.
This ball of ugly notes is the best I could achieve so far.

I will continue studying.

**JimBobWay** · 01-21-2012, 02:26 AM

Way back when I was obsessed with playing fast, I memorized the solos for Giant Steps, Moment's Notice and other Coltrane (and McLaughlin, and DiMeola, and the list goes on and on...) classics as practical studies.
One day I came across a *really* nice transcription of GS in Guitar Player by Larry Coryell, a chord-melody approach. In the notes Larry said "I'm not ready to play this yet, I'm presenting it for study purposes" or something to that effect. That woke me up - here's one of my heroes basically saying this is out of his league. It also validated what all my friends and anyone else who could stand to listen to me play were trying to communicate to me.

And then I got a copy of Rahsaan Roland Kirk's 'Return of the 5000lb Man' which included a beautiful version with lyrics, at a bluesy pace, Kirk playing Coltrane's solo pretty much verbatim but with his own spirit and at a second-line tempo. I took that direction and tweaked Larry's version, and I still play this a lot and get good responses. It remains a fantastic exercise as a bonus.

Another song that illustrates the importance of appropriate pacing in my experience is Monk's 'Straight No Chaser'. When I first learned this from the Real Book with some friends, the tempo was blistering, and it never felt or sounded right to me. When I started to really investigate Monk and heard the original, I was spellbound. Now THAT's 'jazz'!

I'm grateful to all the virtuoso musicians who impressed me with their fast playing, it helped me in many ways. But I'm even more grateful to those who could play as fast as any, but knew that sometimes those steps should be taken a bit more deliberately. ...'not the pace, but the steps...'

**JakeAcci** · 01-21-2012, 01:03 PM

Sure, it's a good point, we don't have to burn these tunes. But we don't have to play them slowly either. The motivation to set a tempo usually is based on a few factors, and I think it's fair (and unfortunate) to say that 'wow factor' is sometimes one of them, but not always.

I think it's good for everybody to keep their ego in check and make good musical decisions, but sometimes the musical decision really is to play a tune briskly and fill up the space.

In the case of Giant Steps, I don't ever call the tune anymore, and when I do I don't call it super fast, nor do the people I play with, even though we all have played it at sessions or gigs at quicker tempos. But if that's somebody's jam I figure more power to them as long as they're doing it because they like the tune, as opposed to trying to win the Jazz Championships.

**AmundLauritzen** · 01-21-2012, 01:40 PM

I think it's a fun tune to play above all. The harmonic movement in the tune is good when I want a break from the usual standards.
In my opinion, being able to play a tune in many different tempos is a good skill to have. If someone decides to be a jerk an call it out in 290bpm, you'll be prepared for that.

I've heard the tune played as a medium-slow bossa and even as a ballad. It really became a whole new tune that way and allows for some interesting phrasing.
I haven't really put in the time to master the tune to the point where I'd dare to call it out. But it's fun to mess around with in the shed, and I can navigate the changes when I've been shedding it regularly. Making music on it is a whole different story though.