What's the meaning of the title of 'Four On Six'?

[Flyin' Brian]

This thread is comedy gold.

[ragman1]

The original title was in fact, "4 on 6 on 21," additionally referencing the fact that Wes' L5 had 21 frets, but it was considered unwieldy and subsequently shortened.

This seems to have gone somewhat unnoticed. Is this true? Where did you learn about the original title?

[grahambop]

In fact the original title was "4 on 6 = 0.666666666666666666666666666666666666666 recurring" and was a tribute to his maths teacher. However Wes got tired of announcing it on stage so shortened the title.

[docbop]

Three on six.

He used four for chords so we give him a pass on the single note playing. Poor guy couldn't even afford a pick.

[destinytot]

[grahambop]

ronnie scott. still trolling the internet in 2017

how did he come up with that? pity we cant see wes' face.

I’ve got this on DVD and I’ve often wondered what on earth Ronnie was going on about. I reckon he was just taking the p***, it would be totally in character.

[grahambop]

haha. and a few years later here it is, a true self-fulfilling prophesy.:

Ulf Wakenius plays Wes Montgomery`s Four on Six

you can't make this up.

That’s brilliant, I would love to plant a ‘sleeper’ story like that.

Actually it’s a little-known fact that Wes carried a plastic thumb which he could pop over the top of his real one whenever his calluses grew too soft.

[rpjazzguitar]

I don't get the 6/8 aspect.

Would someone be kind enough to explain it?

To my ear, it's in 4/4.

[grahambop]

I don't get the 6/8 aspect.

Would someone be kind enough to explain it?

To my ear, it's in 4/4.

That’s what we’re on about re. Ronnie Scott’s baffling comment. There is nothing in the tune in 6/8.

[destinytot]

That’s brilliant, I would love to plant a ‘sleeper’ story like that.

Actually it’s a little-known fact that Wes carried a plastic thumb which he could pop over the top of his real one whenever his calluses grew too soft.

Yes - but it wasn't plastic...

[Jonah]

There is nothing in the tune in 6/8.

There is actually...

It's probably how you hear it first time.... I never questioned this title because I immidiatly felt this 3s (or 6s) in melody and it seemed obvious for me...

But of course I cannot say for sure that Wes meant it (especially after I found so many people would disagree with that).

There's a pic up note - but it's coming in only at the last beat of the first bar... pure melody is

ddb/cc-/ and if you play it straight without swinging it shows 6/8 behind it that fits first three 4ths of the bar... and the last 4th is for the pickup note.

Again for me it seemed obvious...

It goes like

4 /4 /4 /4
888/888/88

dd-/bcc/-b/

By the way ... now I think that comping groove also follow this 3+3+2 rythmic pattern...

[destinytot]

Again for me it seemed obvious..

All that seems obvious to me is that it's 'jazz' (and not maths).

[Jonah]

All that seems obvious to me is that it's 'jazz' (and not maths).

Who says 'maths'?

And with all respect... if we say 'it's jazz' for every problem...
we can stop any conversation here in any thread... but forum is conversation...

All I said was about what I heard... I just expressed it in conventional terms that I am used too... but the experience is purely hearing...
that's it.

I read through this thread now and I found Reg also mentioned 6/8 feel... I do not know if he meant the same thing I do... and as you know I am not looking for authroty to support... but from my long-time mebership here I know that Reg as direct as one could be in expressing his own practical experience... without any pretensions or whatever.

Again let me stress I did not analyze the stuff on purpose - it was just kind of first thing I heard - 4/4 and sort of 3/8 or 6/8 feel in it.... and now I saw the thread I tried to sum it up in more conventional way.

[destinytot]

Who says 'maths'?

And with all respect... if we say 'it's jazz' for every problem...
we can stop any conversation here in any thread... but forum is conversation...

All I said was about what I heard... I just expressed it in conventional terms that I am used too... but the experience is purely hearing...
that's it.

I read through this thread now and I found Reg also mentioned 6/8 feel... I do not know if he meant the same thing I do... and as you know I am not looking for authroty to support... but from my long-time mebership here I know that Reg as direct as one could be in expressing his own practical experience... without any pretensions or whatever.

Again let me stress I did not analyze the stuff on purpose - it was just kind of first thing I heard - 4/4 and sort of 3/8 or 6/8 feel in it.... and now I saw the thread I tried to sum it up in more conventional way.

I said 'maths' - though it's probably arithmetic. You said 'obvious' - qualified with 'for me' - and I followed suit, in my non-mathematical way.

[grahambop]

There is actually...

It's probably how you hear it first time.... I never questioned this title because I immidiatly felt this 3s (or 6s) in melody and it seemed obvious for me...

But of course I cannot say for sure that Wes meant it (especially after I found so many people would disagree with that).

There's a pic up note - but it's coming in only at the last beat of the first bar... pure melody is

ddb/cc-/ and if you play it straight without swinging it shows 6/8 behind it that fits first three 4ths of the bar... and the last 4th is for the pickup note.

Again for me it seemed obvious...

It goes like

4 /4 /4 /4
888/888/88

dd-/bcc/-b/

By the way ... now I think that comping groove also follow this 3+3+2 rythmic pattern...

Yes I agree you could take the melody by itself and express it in 6/8 time. Maybe that is what Wes meant.

[destinytot]

Perhaps it's a cryptic reference to the eponymous compound formed by 't-i-m-e' and 's-u-m-m-e-r', whose letters number four and six respectively. Then again... probably not.

[destinytot]

Yes I agree you could take the melody by itself and express it in 6/8 time. Maybe that is what Wes meant.

It's cliché, but 'just because one could'....because such mathematical thinking fosters too narrow a conception of rhythm to be of any practical use (i.e., in improvising 'jazz') on this tune.

Edit: As Jonah says, "It's obvious" - but in the broadest sense. Because... it's 'jazz'.

[grahambop]

It's cliché, but 'just because one could'....because such mathematical thinking fosters too narrow a conception of rhythm to be of any practical use (i.e., in improvising 'jazz') on this tune.

Edit: As Jonah says, "It's obvious" - but in the broadest sense. Because... it's 'jazz'.

I actually like Jonah's explanation, it's the only one that makes sense of what Ronnie Scott says in that video. I can imagine Ronnie might have asked Wes for the explanation beforehand.

I can also imagine Wes demonstrating the tune for the first time to his trio back in Indianapolis, he might have said 'bass line goes like this' and they say 'ok that's in 4', then he says 'melody goes like this' and they say 'hmm sounds like that bit's in 6', then Wes says 'no you play them together', so Mel Rhyne or somebody says 'sounds like 4 and 6' and Wes says 'hey cool title, I didn't have a name for it yet!'.

Pure speculation of course!

[Jonah]

Perhaps it's a cryptic reference to the eponymous compound formed by 't-i-m-e' and 's-u-m-m-e-r', whose letters number four and six respectively.

I also thought about just 4 notes in the intro and then 6 notes in the chorus melody... It could be this too (or not)))

It's cliché, but 'just because one could'....because such mathematical thinking fosters too narrow a conception of rhythm to be of any practical use (i.e., in improvising 'jazz') on this tune.

It's mathematical thinking just if you imply backwards without natural feel of it (sometimes it is practical by the way... on the teaching method: practice the pattern strictly by the rules and then you begin to feel and incorporate natural musical feeling behind it),

Anyway in this case I was coming from first hearing impression (some kind of fast jazz waktz bounce) and maths came up only as a way to express it conventionally...

It's not that I seprated the melody and began to try to put it into 6/8.

Edit: As Jonah says, "It's obvious" - but in the broadest sense. Because... it's 'jazz'.

Broadest would be because 'it's music' ... obvious... for me)

[Jonah]

I can also imagine Wes demonstrating the tune for the first time to his trio back in Indianapolis, he might have said 'bass line goes like this' and they say 'ok that's in 4', then he says 'melody goes like this' and they say 'hmm sounds like that bit's in 6', then Wes says 'no you play them together', so Mel Rhyne or somebody says 'sounds like 4 and 6' and Wes says 'hey cool title, I didn't have a name for it yet!'.

Ha... I just wanted to say the same speculation... that the name could come up from explanation in rehearsing process

[destinytot]

I also thought about just 4 notes in the intro and then 6 notes in the chorus melody... It could be this too (or not)))



It's mathematical thinking just if you imply backwards without natural feel of it (sometimes it is practical by the way... on the teaching method: practice the pattern strictly by the rules and then you begin to feel and incorporate natural musical feeling behind it),

Anyway in this case I was coming from first hearing impression (some kind of fast jazz waktz bounce) and maths came up only as a way to express it conventionally...

It's not that I seprated the melody and began to try to put it into 6/8.




Broadest would be because 'it's music' ... obvious... for me)

I hear you , and I respect what you say for its empirical value, but I think 'it's music' is actually too broad.

Because the context is 'jazz' - specifically (and perhaps 'obviously', a Wes tune over Summertime) - and what can be inferred from study of it implies what's possible in the playing of melody within that particular style of music.

[destinytot]

I actually like Jonah's explanation, it's the only one that makes sense of what Ronnie Scott says in that video. I can imagine Ronnie might have asked Wes for the explanation beforehand.

I can also imagine Wes demonstrating the tune for the first time to his trio back in Indianapolis, he might have said 'bass line goes like this' and they say 'ok that's in 4', then he says 'melody goes like this' and they say 'hmm sounds like that bit's in 6', then Wes says 'no you play them together', so Mel Rhyne or somebody says 'sounds like 4 and 6' and Wes says 'hey cool title, I didn't have a name for it yet!'.

Pure speculation of course!

Sounds plausible. Chin-chin:

[basinstreet]

This thread is comedy gold.

in our weird corner of the world..

[destinytot]

in our weird corner of the world..

Shakespeare's Caliban to Prospero - had they been talking 'jazz':
"You taught me numbers, and my profit on't is... I know how to count".

[destinytot]

I speculate that some will read and think, "Oh, dear! I'm missing something - I'd better get that book/take that course/buy those bongos etc..."