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Originally Posted by Kojo27
Yes!! One big scale is the greatest visualization. I love exploring the alternate fingers between the over laps of each position as well. Being able to finger up and down into each position, and the usage of different string sets or intervals set up from which finger you decide to use, really helps me see lines in a way that I usually would gliss over from one transition to the next. So kind of like sub fingerings of the main structure. Of course I am anal and a glutton for punishment, but it is sure paying off! Besides, it is so much fun and quite fascinating to discover new territories where you thought there were no more. The same holds true for arps. Alternate fingerings for them in between transition points really helps you see the bigger picture when analyzing smaller lines. I love it.
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09-14-2011 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by fumblefingers
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Two study approaches:
Playing everything you can think of within one fingering idea-----
This will quickly reveal it's strengths and weaknesses.
Play a phrase or full melody everywhere and with every possible fingering-----
To train yourself to quickly see options and compare their strengths and weaknesses in this situation.
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Originally Posted by brwnhornet59
(string - fret# in parentheses): CMaj7 - C (5 - 3), E (4 - 2) G (4 - 5), B (3 - 4) C (2 -1).
What - nobody would ever use it? Not true - I've used it already, sort of. Going for a major 9 sound, I played the arpeggio right up to the final, stretched-to C, then hammered on the following D, simultaneously slid up to the 2nd string E, 5th fret, and then back down to the D and played a C6/9 chord - voila! Thank you, Mr. Vignola.
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Originally Posted by Sandor
Originally Posted by Pip
He gets students started playing that, and because of the symmetry (with allowance made for the 3rd/2nd string interval), they're easily learned even by beginners. Then he shows them how to alter one note to turn that Ionian into Mixolydian and so on.
It's easy to see, visually, and one can actually comprehend the changes in intervals between the modes without a lot of effort because things are symmetrical. I think learning one position at a time in the traditional way that most of us probably learned makes it harder to actually think about intervals because things look so different in each position.
Of course once you've played around with this for a relatively short time, it would be easy to play the Ionian pattern I used as an example above and immediately go into the dorian shape on the next string. That's the same play-it-in-one-position technique that you're talking about your teacher using. You're just learning it or thinking about it in a different way.
Originally Posted by Kojo27
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Originally Posted by Kojo27
So Berklee contains CAGED, you might say. You can slide up and down between positions and learn how the patterns connect and overlap.Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
I never intended to say the fingerings are the same. They obviously are not. A couple are, though - or they're very close. "E" and "C"? Or 2E and 4A?
To answer your question as a hypothetical, No - you couldn't well say such a thing. Maybe that the "patterns" are the same except for the way you finger them - that seems sensible. Again, though, I'm short on coffee, so I might be missing your point. If so, I'll try again - just restate.
kj
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There is nothing limiting about Matt's methods. In fact they are quite liberating. Most students tend to over do everything so much, that they don't see the simplicity of certain idea's. I also went that route. So for me, using Matt's methodology has been quite beneficial. Especially in the use of practicing all modes of all scales in one key. This pedal tone creates the soundboard that is required to hear them. One pedal note gives all 7 keys of the mode. His ideas are also a very easy way to start the exploration of very complex ideas. The only thing limited by his methods would be the students inability to expand on these ideas.IMHO
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Kojo, All I was saying was that the similarities have to do with the way the notes fall on the fretboard, and that doesn't change. I've played with both and see the similarities the same way you do. I just think a fingering is a fingering, and only a couple of them are the same, between the two fingering systems, but again, that's just because of the way the notes happen to fall on the fretboard.
Also, I prefer talking about Bruno vs Leavitt fingerings. CAGED is more of a general understanding of how the notes/chords fall on the fretboard and isn't really systematized. There are several different fingerings, with and without stretches, that different people call CAGED fingerings. Apparently people have a lot of different ideas of what CAGED means. I tend to think of CAGED as being generally what Bruno is doing.
No offense intended. It's just semantics..."fingerings" versus "fretboard patterns". I understand what you were saying.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 09-14-2011 at 09:31 AM.
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yes... that system was taught at Berklee... only choice is 7th degree or Loc. most switch to either same fingering as 6th or back to 1st degrees.
Most fingering work. The general point is to have simplest motion, and simple transitions to other positions. The 1st and 4th fingers are for stretches, and your base or 2nd finger is usually your strongest and easiest to use for reference when changing positions.
In actual use... most never stay in one position and when reading, you don't want to have to watch your fingers to change positions etc... Another fairly important point about Leavitt's fingering... their for jazz boxes with heavier strings... traditional jazz players.
What fingerings guitarists use... can and usually does reflect what and how guitarist play.
I use different fingerings all the time to help create different styles... Different fingerings create different accent patterns, accent patterns are grooves. When you get into articulations and phrasing... fingerings and picking become one more detail we need to be aware of. Reg
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Originally Posted by bako
When learning new one octave arpeggios a good thing to do is to make up a short riff with that arp and take it through the cycle of 4ths starting off of each finger/string.
Same with a good melody (like the first bar of Scrapple From the Apple or Groovin by Diz)
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Originally Posted by Kojo27
Yeah, I use these ideas. There are several extensions that come to mind with this pattern.
(5-3) (4-2) (4-5) (3-4) (3-5) (2-5) (1-3) (1-7)
or
(5-3) (4-2) (4-5) (3-4) (2-1) (2-5) (1-3) (1-7)Last edited by brwnhornet59; 09-14-2011 at 09:39 AM.
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Originally Posted by Reg
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Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
Yeah - good point about Bruno vs. CAGED as a better contrast to Berklee. And no offense taken - none at all. Hope I didn't give that impression.
BTW, Matt - if you have the pentatonic fingerings that utilize a first-finger slide and then a "symmetrical fingering," i.e., 1, 2, 4 -- I'd *love* to learn those. I'm pentatonic poor, compared to most, but in love with the Eastern/exotic sounds of the major scales, and love legato. .PDF files don't decode, or something, on this forum. My email is kojo.27 AT gmail; if you have time, I'd appreciate it much. If not, no prob.
kj
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Originally Posted by brwnhornet59
The Vignola book has actually been around a while - I thought it was new. It's completely different in intent from Latarski's book, seems to me. The latter is more of a thesaurus, no? Vignola's purpose is to explore the fingerboard and discover new roads and new sounds. Like you're doing here!
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I sent you some stuff Kojo.
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Originally Posted by Kojo27
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Originally Posted by Kojo27
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Originally Posted by Kojo27
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Originally Posted by brwnhornet59
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Yes, I sent it to kojo.27@gmail.com
Should have been there a while ago. I just sent it again.
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Originally Posted by whatswisdom
On a good day, from 3rd.
On any ol' day, from 5th.
But it's an ugly thing - probably not of any practical use. But this is from doing the Berklee scales. One of the scales that feels best to me, for whatever reason, has 5-fret spans on 4 of the six strings. It'll stretch your fingers.Last edited by Kojo27; 09-14-2011 at 11:32 AM.
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Originally Posted by brwnhornet59
KJ
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Originally Posted by Kojo27
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Originally Posted by Reg
It starts with a musical idea. A fingering is just a tool in service of the music.
Certain fingerings will best support a particular phrase for a particular player.
When preparing a part from a written score, we can agonize in detail about the best finger for each note.
Sight reading is another story and as improvisors we can never be too prepared.
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Originally Posted by Kojo27
I learned Aaron Shearer fingerings (classical). The biggest stretch I've had to execute (and play the notes clean) in a musical context was a six-fret distance in one of Joplin's rags ("The Easy Winners.") 1st finger/2nd fret > 4th finger/7th fret.
BTW - a great left-hand exersize I get enormous benefit from is to play Gb major scale in octaves from 1st position. Up/down stepwise; in 3rds; in sequence, etc. Really helps develop finger independence and makes reaching easier.Last edited by whatswisdom; 09-14-2011 at 01:30 PM.
Just a Gigolo C7 Bb7 A7
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