How do YOU practice modes?

[JazzFanatik]

Okay so a little bit ago I realized all I use in soloing is the pentatonic scale, which can get really boring, and predictable...and anyways. I discovered the modes...

I've probably been practicing them for a few weeks now, and I'm starting to see the shapes across the neck, but I'm still having a hard time using them in solo's.

Just curious, how do YOU practice the modes? Do you do like patterns, or just run up and down them? I'm trying to get to the point where I can actually use them, but it seems like it's taking a while, is this normal?

Just lookin for some advice on how i should be practicing them...cuz somethin aint right....

[JensL]

To begin with learn you major scales.

Then if you want to practice a mode f.ex. mixolydian.

Mixolydian is associated with the 5th degree of the major scale and the diationic chord on the 5th degree is G7.

Learn the arpeggio of G7 in the fingerings of your major scale.

Record a backing track of G7, start improvising using the arpeggio and the rest of the scale. If you emphasize the arpeggio notes you make the mode sound stronger otherwise you might end up sounding like another chord or mode (there are after all 7 of them in the scale).

By improvising (a lot, for a long time..) you should begin to develop ideas which are sounding like a G7 in C major ie. G mixolydian.

Repeat for all modes, I would start with I, II, V, VI modes and then IV, VII and III.

Jens

[JakeAcci]

I agree with Jens completely.

There also are a lot of little tricks. Mick Goodrick had the idea to take simple melodies (say twinkle twinkle or row your boat) and alter them to suit each mode to hear the sound of that mode.

[brwnhornet59]

Jake, i have done that with twinkle twinkle little star and itsy bitsy spider. It is a great way to build lines and really kewl chords.

Jonny, i loved your thread. Awesome dude. The octave dispersal is tripping me out!

JensL, you are right on with your advice.

Jazz Fanatik, I just watched a great video by Vic Juris. It was about using penatonic in unusual ways. I got a ton out of this. You can use the scales you already know. So practice the major scale and it's modes. But also follow and use the Pent over these ii V I's. Great stuff!!

[JazzFanatik]

Thank you guys so much. That is probably the most solid advice i've gotten...I really appreciate it...

[Reg]

Are you aware of modal concepts... characteristic pitches, intervals and functions...

[JazzFanatik]

Umm...well let me tell you what I know (or what I think I know), and you can tell me what else I SHOULD know..lol My vocabularly is not always the best....

I know that modes each have their own sound.

I know that each chord from the major scale has it's own mode to go with it, so like if someone was playing in the Key of C and they were playing a Gdom7 chord, then the G mixolydian mode goes with that chord.

And lastly, I know that they are formed by starting on that particular note so like the Cmaj scale is :CDEFGAB
or 1234567

So if I want to play D Dorian, I just go from D to D....

Is that all correct?

that's pretty much all I know...I don't know about characteristic pitches or any of that stuff. Is that something you think I should be looking into at the moment? based on where i am in my knowledge of the modes?

Thanks Reg,

[brwnhornet59]

Yeah, your on the right path. Do this, write out the C major scale in each degree to its fullest. Those are the modes. Now take each mode and build in 3rds until you get to the 13th degree. Those are the full chords with all of the tonalities of that mode. The easiest thing to do is learn the triads first, 1 3 5, then with the 7ths, 1 3 5 7. Those will be the chords you will use the most at first. You can also take the triad, 1 3 5, and instead of using the 7th, add the 6th, or the 4th or the 2nd. These will give you different stress points within the chord/mode. You will discover all sorts of things happening. Enjoy!!

[JazzFanatik]

Cool thanks! Yeah I can play maj7, min7, maj9, min9, dom7, min7b5 and dim7 chords. I need to start working on adding some other tensions though.....

[brwnhornet59]

Great. But make sure that you understand the degree and function of each chord/mode. This is very important. Remember that a D-7 built from C, functions differently than a D-7 built from F or Bb. They are all different degrees of those Keys. As triads and 7th's they will function the same, but the othere stress points will not. This holds true with both Maj7ths. Have fun!!!

[JazzFanatik]

Good point, I guess I never thought of that...so for example, D-7 in the Key of C would be D Dorian, but D-7 in the Key of F would be D Aeloian.

Is that what you mean by understanding the different degrees?

[TH]

There also are a lot of little tricks. Mick Goodrick had the idea to take simple melodies (say twinkle twinkle or row your boat) and alter them to suit each mode to hear the sound of that mode.

Another thing Mick's been using with small groups is the Living Mode. This is an activity that has a visual and sound component to it. People sit in a circle. They get a note a piece, 1 is tonic. Take turns standing up and singing their note. The order can be initiated by the last note or by someone from the outside. This gives an uncanny immediacy to intervallic "weight" of the relationship between notes, consonance and dissonance and everybody in the group gets to assimilate the relationships without blindly tuning out on finger runs.

Here's an approach that works for Kurt Rosenwinkel: Run your chord scale (mode) in different intervals- 2nds, 3rds, ...larger intervals of 5ths , 6ths... all the way. Do it to the point of fluency. Do it 'til you have the sound. Then you can combine them. As you work with them, you'll be less guided by finger position and eventually you'll be playing sound. It takes time. Again, it takes time.

Basically lock yourself in a space until you feel yourself in the character of the mode, in the zone, so to speak. Then as soon and as easily as you can, put this musical space and fit it over the chordal situation in a piece where it fits. Get the sound of the mode into your changes. Chordal vamps are nice this way.

Oh yeah, have fun
David

[mattymel]

I know that modes each have their own sound.

I know that each chord from the major scale has it's own mode to go with it, so like if someone was playing in the Key of C and they were playing a Gdom7 chord, then the G mixolydian mode goes with that chord.

while this is technically correct, this is exactly the approach i tell my students to avoid.

reason...

on guitar a "mode" is nothing more than a fingering of a major or minor scale. similar to the CAGED type system everybody talks about.

while i spent many months/years practicing my "modes" through all 12 keys, it wasnt until i broke out of the idea of 1 scale per 1 chord (C ionian for CMAj7 D dorian for Dm7 etc...) that all the fingerings i knew started to pay off. if you are thinking about 4 different scales to play over CMaj7 Am7 Dm7 G7 in the space of 2 measures, ITS NO WONDER you are having trouble thinking in terms of "modes".

whether you are playing a C ionian, D dorian, or E phrygian over a CMaj7 wont sound any different. why? because they are all the SAME notes.

the point im trying to get at is that modes dont determine "sounds"...chords do.

you will be vastly better served learning arpeggios (all the inversions) of your diatonic triads than thinking mode to mode. modes are nothing more than a quick way to be thinking too much. CMaj7 Dm7 G7...all the same scale...WAY WAY WAY more important that you know what the chord tones are, and then the available extensions.

once you can play roots, 3rds, 5ths, and 7ths for any chord, then try the same with extensions...

[Fast Bebop]

If you want to go deeply into modes, don't do it in a tonal context. Because every chord change will mean mode change. And it's a lot of thinking when you play. It depends if the song you work on has a dense harmonic rythm or not.

The best to get familiar with modes is to work on one at a time. An simple thing I did often is to let ring the open E, and play one of the different modes that contains an E in it.

By working this way, you will begin to hear and distinguish the differents colours between the modes. I guess that if you worked on modes, you know there are seven from the major scale, the harmonic minor scale, and the melodic minor scale. That makes 21 but no need to work on every of them.

For the major scales modes, I'd choose these two ones first, because they are very stable, every note of the mode works well :
Lydian with its peaceful, mysterious and aerial sounding.
Dorian which is a little darker and introspective.

The Phrygian mode is very interesting too, with a descending and very dark, flamenco tone.

Mixolydian is typical of the Blues.

Ionian and Aeolian are much common to the ear. Not the best for modal fun.

Locrian is so instable that it's very uncommon to use it as a mode.

Work first on mode II,IV and V of the major scale. Then III.

For the modes derived from the harmonic minor scale, work on mode IV and V. They are very cool, and have a deep balkanic, arabian colour.

For the modes derived from the melodic minor scale, two modes are very important for the jazz language :
The mode IV (Lydian b7) works well on the IV chord of a blues tune!
The mode VII (altered mode) used to built tension on a V chord. Need to be resolved at a time !

Hope this will help,

Cheers

FB

[sc06yl]

I don't really...

I practice scales in position. Usually at least once a day, in at least one key, in all positions from 1 to 12, the melodic, harmonic, and major scale.

My last teacher said that a lot of people get held back practicing all those modes, if you have good fretboard knowledge and can play all your scales everywhere on the neck, you shouldn't have to practice playing the modes anywhere. It makes sense to me.

[timscarey]

I think what reg meant by characteristc pitch (not to be presumptuous) is basically...

If you start with the major and minor scales as your base, the characteristic notes of the modes would be...

b7 = mixo
#4 = lydian

#6 = dorian
b2 = phrygian
b5 = Locrian (b2 would be included in this too, depending on taste and context)

I think viewing them as individual scales is really the way to go. Its good info to know the parent scales for all your modes, but I don't think it really helps you play at all. And, locrian may or may not be used a lot, it depends on the music being played.

Good luck, I toally advocate arpeggios first, modes to fill in the gaps, but honestly, one of the hippest things you can do (IMO) is to chromatically bridge chord tones... sometimes, modes are just too inside for me when interesting note choice is the MO.

[Billnc]

Set up a drone and play the mode.

[Bloomfield89]

Hi

What would you guys recommend for the best way to learn modes?

I've tried memorizing the shapes, but if i dont use the modes for a while, i'll always forget them.

On the other hand, say i am going to use a D dorian, and i think that i am playing a C Major scale just starting on the D, its ALOT easier for me to play the mode. However, i realize that sometimes what i play if i think of it this way might not sound very coherent. and eventually i just think I am playing a C major scale

I understand that arpeggios will come in handy and have been working on it about thrice as much as modes. Just wondering how I can get the modes locked in my head and fingers once and for all.

Thanks!

[whatswisdom]

What would you guys recommend for the best way to learn modes?

Sing them. Once you can hear them and sing them from memory you won't be concerned about shapes. It's all a major scale starting and ending on each degree of the scale.

[mr. beaumont]

I really think in order to get the sound of a mode in your head, you need to look at what notes make the mode unique, and practice them against a sound of he root of the mode...

Don't try to tackle all of 'em at once.

[Reg]

There are modal harmony concepts, but I think it's important to understand Modal Harmony.
We generally think and hear, as our European classical tradition has taught us... in Major, Ionian, with typical harmonic functions, voice leading etc... for example in key of Cmaj. G7 usually has a Dominant function with the tri-tone resolving back to the Tonic. Cmaj or other functional tonic chord, III-(E-), or VI-,(A-). There are basic guidelines and a few layers of methodology... and may seem complicated... but it's not... the theory works and sound great, somewhat vanilla, especially to Jazz players but it is one concept or organization. And that's one of the problems... it's one organizational concept.
When you begin to use or hear Modally... the rules and guidelines change. Your no longer following traditional harmonic practice. One of the main harmonic movement and functional devices, the V7 dominant chord almost become avoided. At least until you get to that point where your skill level at implying the Mode you decide to use, works.
In modal chordal progression, or modal function, the only Tonic chord is the I chord. The rest of the chords built from the scale degrees are chords in them self's, they either have the characteristic modal pitch in them or they don't. Function or intervalic resolutions are not the same as traditional harmony.
So in an example... D dorian, D dorian Modal world, there are chords with and without the characteristic pitch. "B". This B becomes a functional device to imply D dorian.

Here's the basic chords built on Dorian scale,
D-7 tonic chord
E-7 has characteristic pitch, (CP)
Fmaj7 no CP
G7 has CP, but also has tri-tone and typically strongly implies Cmaj. rather than resolution back to D-7.
A-7 no CP
B-7b5 has CP, but again has tri-tone and will also strongly imply Cmaj.
Cmaj7 has CP
If you listen to late 50's and 60's modal music, McCoy Tyner for example, chordal players began to voice chords in fourth and other interval to help camouflage traditional chord voicings resolutions.
Thinks of modal harmony as you would Serial or 12 tone music... different organizational methodology.
In our D dorian example the II-7 chord or E-7 has non-tri-tone resolving Dom like function because of the characteristic pitch and the IIImaj7 chord, Fmaj7 has almost a non-4th degree sub-dom like function. I'm stretching the terminology to help relate Modal Harmony to how we understand Traditional Harmony.
And as always... generally there are more harmonic concepts simultaneously being employed.
Here's an old video that might help... Check it out and make me clear up the details... Thanks Reg

[whatswisdom]

So in an example... D dorian, D dorian Modal world, there are chords with and without the characteristic pitch. "B". This B becomes a functional device to imply D dorian.

Unable to check out the vid at the moment. Please explain why B is the characteristic pitch in D dorian. Thanks.

[mr. beaumont]

The unaltered sixth is the chracteristic pitch of the Dorian mode.

[whatswisdom]

The unaltered sixth is the chracteristic pitch of the Dorian mode.

Thanks, Mr.B. Do all of the modes have CP? If so, please list...

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Thanks, Mr.B. Do all of the modes have CP? If so, please list...

Can I try?

Ionian -- the major seventh: C D E F G A B C. The leading tone is what signals the tonic is a-coming, is the way I'd express it.

Dorian -- the major 6th: D E F G A B C D. As mentioned above.

Phrygian -- the minor second. E F G A B C D E.

Lydian -- the augmented 4th: F G A B C D E F. It's what distinguishes F lydian from F major.

Mixolydian -- the minor 7th: G A B C D E F G. It's what distinguishes G mixolydian from G major.

Aeolian -- the most boring mode! (ducks) Hmmm... I have to guess here, the minor 6th? A B C D E F G A.

Locrian -- must be the diminished fifth, since it is the only mode of the major scale with it: B C D E F G A B.

Anyone see a pattern?