Jimmy Bruno's CAGED system of guitar improvisation

[guitarplayer007]

i learned from the Jimmy Bruno site where he uses i think what is called the Cage system. It comprises 5 fingering to cover the entire neck. But when i hear people using modes, they create way better sounds against chords then i do. I'm really pissed off. Feel like i wasted 3 yrs playing this way
ken

[andyhoey1]

That's interesting. I was just thinking of joining his new workshop. I guess I should reconsider.

[paynow]

i learned from the Jimmy Bruno site where he uses i think what is called the Cage system. It comprises 5 fingering to cover the entire neck. But when i hear people using modes, they create way better sounds against chords then i do. I'm really pissed off. Feel like i wasted 3 yrs playing this way
ken

That's not JB's fault. That system for scales is one of many, and it's decent. Your ear, however, is what guides you to solo.

[fep]

Hey Guitarplayer,

The 'church' modes (Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aolian, Locrian) are all contained in those Jimmy B fingerings. You just need to learn which notes to emphasize.

It certainly wasn't a waste spending that time learning the fretboard.

[JonnyPac]

The CAGED system is valid enough. Look deeper into it for the sounds you want... They are probably right there, but hidden.

[fumblefingers]

CAGED is a fingering system not an improv system. improv systems are intrument independant. what have you studied about improv?

[jzucker]

i would advise you to spend more time copying joe pass, wes montgomery, pat martino and george benson and less time in online guitar classes and forums.

[monk]

Just learning scales or modes is not going to magically transform you into an improvisor.

The quickest way to learn to improvise, IMO, is to learn the recorded solos of the greats. Once you see and hear what they did, you will better understand what you need to do. It's also the quickest way to realise that there's more to improvising than running up and down scales.

[jzucker]

Agreed monk. I'd be more inclined to be in favor of online schools if they provided a more diverse set of artists and opinions

[monk]

JZ,
I don't know of any other way to learn to improvise other than the time-honored method of copying solos from the recordings of the greats. Regardless of style, that's the fastest way to get there. There are no shortcuts.

I also agree that as many perspectives as possible should be examined. As Howard Roberts used to say "If you steal from one guy, it's plagiarism. If you steal from a lot of guys, it's research".

[voelker]

These systems for organizing the fretboard are designed to get you up and running, creating music, creating an interest. They apply the guitar to music. now that you have decided that you like it, the next step is to go back and apply music to the guitar. You need to look at music from a universal view. Understanding music does not mean memorizing shapes on the fretboard, it means being aware of every interval.... but had you started playing guitar by practiceing different fingerings for different intervals all over the fretboard, you would have most likely gotten bored and quit. so i wouldn't be so upset

[Billnc]

I was taught to improvise by improvising. Mick Goodrick is an advocate of this. Take melodic and harmonic material and move it around. Take the material you presently know, figure out some uses for it and improvise on it. Learn devices for leading to chord tones etc.

[guitarplayer007]

I see

[Billnc]

I realize now I didn't explain much.
One example, over a chord progression play only chord tones. Say you are in one of the CAGE positions. You would stay there. Stay on one string and play chord tones through the progression. Sometimes there will only be one note available. Gradually add a string until you have the whole position down.

Do this up and down the entire length of each string, then up and down groups of two strings.

Another thing to do is take a lick, say you've got a one measure a minor lick. That lick should work over Ami, D7, Cmaj, Fmaj and others. Transpose that lick through a progression, change the time values of the lick, start the lick on different beats etc.

Hope that makes my original a little clearer.

[fumblefingers]

after you have some basic scales and arpeggios under you fingers, a course that shows you how to use chord tones, target tones, and different types of approach notes can be very valuable. amazon.com has some excellent books for this.

also solos and licks like people mentioned above. one thing about that though. you need to understand basic theory and be able to perform harmonic analysis in order to maximize your understanding of the licks and solos so that you can apply them to other tunes.

[jzucker]

what are your goals?

[Reg]

Hey 007... Sounds like your working on your guitar skills which is always great, the better your skill the the better you might be able to play. The process of improvisation in jazz is a completely different subject.( as was brought up above). There many methods for constructing solos, building from melody, just in melody development alone there are a ton of methods. Anyway there are methods that develop melodically, harmonically and also rhythmically. Most of these types of methods can be taught... learned. Then there are a different group of methods that are more of a reactionary style of improve... they require somewhat of a understanding of the previously mentioned methods, and very developed musical skills, or how ever you develop your ears to be able to hear and recognize whats being played and be aware of where the music could go... If one has the time you can develop these skills through ... trial and error, or speed the process up by training your ears... if you work that way. We're all different, I worked both ways.... feel free to ask any questions about what I wasn't clear in explaining... Reg

[Gramps]

"But when i hear people using modes, they create way better sounds against chords then i do."

There could be a key here for you to unlock something. The modes of the major scale are what most people start with when they play modally. You already know the major scale in at least 5 different places. Any of those positions work for playing all the modes of the major scale.

On the other hand I find I sound much "jazzier" when I play more chord tones and arpegio based lines than when I play modally but you might hear something else.

Just keep searching.

PS. Take Monks advise and work on some of the solos you like and figure out what they are thinking. You might find that what you described as "people playing modes" isn't really modal playing. (or maybe it is, I don't know. lol)

[Billnc]

For jazz improv I would save modal study for last. Do chord tones with their approaches through changes. If you have to learn a modal tune for a performance (like So What, Maiden Voyage etc) then learn the mode(s) specific to that tune. It's really about the only time you'd use much modal thinking in mainstream jazz.

[McCap]

The JB Online classes aren't bad and I don't believe you've wasted time. The thing is IMHO JB is quite strict, on style. The good thing is he takes you by the hand and leads you to playing jazz tunes step by step. BUT he will show you just his way (no critique here, but he is "just" himself after all ).
The other side is that you need to leave the hand at one point (like growing up) and find the sounds you like!

If you've worked for 3 years with JB you should have a really good foundation, that should allow you to create the lines you like with a little extra work (transcribing, listening, getting ideas from other teachers, players etc).

[Billnc]

To relieve your frustration, make sure you have a repertoire, if it's simple so be it, virtuosos play So What, and the blues and Blue Bossa, Autumn Leaves etc. So if you have say 10 or 15 easy tunes you are already a player, keep this in mind. Make the guitar sound good, that is the most important thing, a guy who sounds terrible but has chops for days is still awful. A guy who plays simply and sounds good is good.

Don't look at what you can't do, build on what you can. You may be focusing on the wrong thing.

I'm sort of starting over on guitar and learning on the bandstand so to speak. If I were to focus on the long list of things I can't do right now I'd be stuck in my tracks.

[Stringbean]

i learned from the Jimmy Bruno site where he uses i think what is called the Cage system. It comprises 5 fingering to cover the entire neck. But when i hear people using modes, they create way better sounds against chords then i do. I'm really pissed off. Feel like i wasted 3 yrs playing this way
ken

How does it take 3 years to realize that the Bruno system does not work for you? Some personal accounting is surely in order.

[Reg]

here's a video i made a while age about modal playing. I've posted some detailed explanations about jazz modal playing... But basically each mode has characteristic pitch and intervals. How you handle those is what makes each mode sound different. I'll try and dig up old post... takes a while to write out... but like I said here's a basic video on modal playing...Reg

[Reg]

My youtube site is Reg523, check out the video on modal playing... I'll try and get the vid up on this thread...Reg

[Flyin' Brian]

Hey Guitarplayer,

The 'church' modes (Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aolian, Locrian) are all contained in those Jimmy B fingerings. You just need to learn which notes to emphasize.

It certainly wasn't a waste spending that time learning the fretboard.

This is the truth. Those 5 fingerings do in fact include all the modes without remembering or even having to think about modes. It's one of the things I like about Jimmy's method and although he can get a bit cranky when it comes to discussing modes, there's no doubt that he knows what they're all about. Also he tends to point out the symmetry of the fretboard. For instance if you play all the notes of any major scale in any of the fingerings he teaches (which really aren't new), you come to realize little things like you always end up playing the tonic with either your 2nd or 4th finger no matter where you are. It helps organize the fretboard for me anyway.

Now of course you still have to use your ear to make music and to me that's always come from listening to a LOT of jazz. Over the years I've stolen a lot of licks from people, but with Jimmy's way of organizing and then later emphasizing the "outside" notes (black keys in the key of C), I now understand what it was that I've stolen.

One of the things he also emphasizes that's often missing is swing, timing and musical phrasing. It seems that we often get so tied up in harmonic study and harmonic theory that time takes a back seat. He shows how you can play just a few notes and still be musical by virtue of how you play those notes. It's also interesting that in those bootleg online lessons, Metheny spends 90% of his time talking about the same thing.....time.

I agree with Jack Zucker that listening to and transcribing solos of the masters is extremely important, but it might be putting the horse before the cart if one first doesn't have a really good picture of the fingerboard and all of the notes thereon.

And Reg here ya go: