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I get that...maybe it's just the wording...it seems contradictory....
I understand what he's saying, and I agree with it (I too don't think that CST is beginner stuff) but I'm really struggling with the idea that a chord tone approach is just chord tones...saying that is the kind of stuff that steers a student into more advanced ways of thinking too quickly.
I guess that while I think yes, chord tone approach is easier and better for beginners and that CST comes later, I don't see it as you "graduate" to CST...Last edited by mr. beaumont; 04-18-2012 at 09:47 AM.
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04-18-2012 09:42 AM
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04-18-2012, 09:54 AM #27Nuff Said GuestMaybe "Professor Hal Crook" is deliberately over simplifying his "Chord Tones" to make his point, but I like that he's in agreement that the "Chord Tones" is a good "first experience" for "Beginning improvisers".
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Nuff
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Very possible. But that's an oversimplification that doesn't really make real-world sense.
Out of curiosity, why do you keep putting "Professor Hal Crook" in quotations?
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04-18-2012, 02:05 PM #29Nuff Said GuestThe "Professor Hal Crook" is copy/pasted from my memory buffer. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Nuff
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Oh, okay...I wasn't sure how to take it.
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04-18-2012, 02:17 PM #31Nuff Said Guest
Yes, when I'm quoting from an article, I put quotes around the quotation.
Its a bit of an outdated grammatical idiosyncratic habit, but I'm old school, because I'm old.
Nuff
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Not a problem...I wasn't sure if it was a kind of "air quotes" thing mocking his professorship, or meant to say "hey mod-man, this guy's a professor, he does actually know what he's talking about."
Being that I consider you a pretty level-headed member, I found either of those choices to be out of character, so I had to ask.
HEY FOLKS, SEE HOW WE HANDLED THAT?
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You might eventually get to the point where you actually realize that both vertical and horizontal aspect of using or hearing note collections... are going on all the time. Chord scales and chord tones are the same pitch collections...simply different applications of hearing or using.
It's pretty difficult for most to digest multiple concepts and applications of...all together... so you usually start somewhere.... knowing that where you begin is just that, not the complete picture.... will help you become aware of other concepts.
Both CT and CS approaches eventually use same pitch collections. The organizational method of application can be different...
There are more methods of organizing pitch collections besides CT or CS... But as I always try to say... in jazz... you rarely simply use one organizational method for soloing, generally all methods are going on...all doors are open.
It's your choice to decide whats implied....what the tune, music or your version of implies. What method's going on. If your not aware of...or don't understand what's going on... you do the best you can.
If your unable to determine what's implied... You imply what or where you want to go improvisational from what you know... No right or wrong... simply different method of approaching improvisation.
Generally when you play... there are a few different solos.... Having different understandings of what's going on opens more doors for structuring solos....As always in the end when we play, we simply play, we usually don't go through all these mental processes... But all the educational BS you practice and train yourself to become instinct... will make playing jazz much more fun.
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The other advantage that I find in the chord-tone approach, beside the fact that they highlight the quality of every chord-tone and extension, is that they allow the simple visualization and simultaneous-application of different modes and scales in a very intuitive way.
If you have a minor chord for instance, it is very simple to think and apply the Dorian, Aeolian, Phrygian, Dorian 2b, Melodic Minor, Locrian, and more without expending much effort. All you need to do is have a firm understanding and control over the chord tones, and gradually add a combination of seconds and sixths to obtain the desired sound of your mode.
The reason for this simplicity is that all sensible modes will share (almost) the same chord tones and even some extensions.
This approach also allows me to be able to generate a mode sound in a melody without needing the target chord to be explicitly voiced under the melody. This of course is made possible by properly being able to highlight the chord-tones, and effectively injecting the mode-specific extensions within the melody.
I find this to be extremely difficult using the chord-scale approach.Last edited by alphekkai; 05-10-2012 at 11:22 AM.
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It is and it isn't...
I advocate chord tones for beginners simply because I assume they're in the process of learning a lot of new chords at the same time...why not kill two birds with one stone...
But some people visualize scale patterns easier...
Again, there's really no "versus." Different approaches work better in different situations, different approaches work simultaneously...and all "approaches" or "thinking" has to happen in the practice room, over and over, until it can naturally come out of you when you play...If you're thinking about this stuff while performing a tune, you don't really know that tune yet.
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In the end we hear/see/play the Gestalt. The rest are the component parts. All paths that are useful and good, are in fact, useful and good.
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I have got to say this so forgive me if I am out of line. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
There are times when reading the different exchanges is amusing since it is sometimes hard to determine whether or not a given post carries some sort of veiled attack, and one is being shown disrespect. Because of this, certain forum members are quick to go into a defensive posture or even a counter attack. It can reach the point where a full-fledged war of words and personal attack ensue.
Luckily, most of the members are pretty level-headed but there are some that would make a great addition to a reality show because they are ready to "throw down" at any "crossed" word.
I really don't like when things get too ugly; however, so I am glad most of you folks are ladies and gentlemen. If I want ugly, all I need to do is go to a gym in a rough area and watch them play basketball or go to a soccer field in a rough area. I have actually seen guy go to their car to get their gun because of an on field/on court dispute.
None of you would do that, would you
? Sorry. I could not resist writing this. Some of my more immature associates actually love reading verbal battles on this forum, even though they don't have the slightest interest in playing Jazz Guitar. They also like reality shows...
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What is "hogwash?" Crook is simply saying you should be able to arpeggiate through the changes, accurately, before moving on. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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He is simply saying that you should be able to accurately play through the changes using only chord tones before moving on. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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That last sentence: "I guess that while I think yes, chord tone approach is easier and better for beginners and that CST comes later, I don't see it as you "graduate" to CST...." This sentence is logically inconsistent, no? Makes no sense to me. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Hey Also Ran......I treat it like a kind of "post Freudian" reality show,
...quotation marks intended....[I'm old school/old as well ] ha ha...
Just enjoy the jousting and posturing....yeah, now I'm doing it too.
Boys will be boys...at least I think they are all boys on this thread.
I'm with Reg....so many ways...all going on at the same time....
In fact I'd like to give a big vote of thanks to Reg for participating on
the forums and his huge overview of this whole subject of attempting
to play jazz [whatever that may mean to each of us in our own inner worlds]
Let's keep it real guys....I'm looking around for my BS wading boots.
[.....stolen from my man Reg]
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M
Not inconsistent...perhaps poorly worded... Originally Posted by Tom Stewart
I've posted a lot about the way jazz is taught to beginners. My ttake is that they are entering this whole new world of chords...why not kill two birds with one stone and use some of that info to begin improvising too?
I think crooks article grossly oversimplifies the note choices available in this visualization scheme...cst uses the same 12 notes right? I say you do not graduate to cst as I don't see it as a better system...just another way to navigate that you learn if you are going to play jazz...the whole idea of one "versus" the other is actually silly...as you learn and play jazz you see everything eventually overlaps...you use the navigation that makes the most sense to you for the situation.
Does that make sense?
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I agree IMHO chord tone approach means to reflect the harmony in the improvisation this doesn't imply arpeggios Originally Posted by fep
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I do agree that one vs. the other is silly – that false dichotomy really reflects a cultural divide between those who understand CST and use it creatively, and those who don’t have a clue how to apply it and think it makes you sound like math or something. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
But Crook is not talking about a comprehensive improv scheme in this article. He is making one narrow point: you need to know what the chord tones sound like and how they resolve from chord to chord, before you get into CST. There is nothing wrong with placing constraints on your playing in order to develop a specific skill. Once you master the skill, then move on. That's just how I'm reading it.
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I get that, I just think he's oversimplifying what sounds are available to a person who navigates with chord tones...i think it's the line "allure and sophistication of chord scales" that irritates me. Seems to reinforce the dichotomy.
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I don't necessarily want to criticize this article, because I think learning to approach improvisation by just playing the chord tones is a great exercise and helped me a lot, but...has anyone ever heard a melody like this? Originally Posted by Drumbler
I really consider the scale just the arpeggio with interesting passing tones, and if you practice in this way there's no difference. You have to know how to land on the right pitches, regardless of how you got there.
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Hi, this my 1st post. Great forum!!!!Been watching from the outside, decided to jump in.
I find working on playing tunes with only chord-tones leads to a certain amount of control. To be able play a solo and hear all the changes in the solo itself without accompaniment. But it is an exercise. There is also the concept of playing chord-tones with different approach tones (half-step below, diatonic above etc.) I did alot of this when I was taking lessons from a former Berklee student. Quite a while ago I was very lucky to have a lesson with Pat Metheny. At that point I could only play through changes using scales(or chord-scales really), Pat clearly let me know that I needed to improve my use of chord tones in a controlled manner. My playing lacked direction and there was 'information' missing in my solos. Alot of us guitar players come from using pentatonic scales over chords in a rock context. Sometimes the transition to playing jazz forces us to approch things in a different manner. Now the advantage is when I play rock or other styles,I can play inside the chords in a much deeper way.Last edited by Ronstuff; 05-11-2012 at 06:33 PM.
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Exactly. Originally Posted by Ronstuff
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This was quoted earlier in this thread. I agree 100%."The one beef I have with the "chord scale movement" is that it sort of
suggests all seven notes are equally cool, when in fact that's really
not the case. There really are usually four notes you want to land on
that are the really, really, good ones. Then there are the others you
want to get through and some you barely want to touch them. That degree of weight thing is usually not discussed because it is usually presented in the form of modal thinking rather than voice leading. My advice to people is yes, learn the chord scales but also make sure you can solo using just the chord tones. A big chunk of early jazz history was largely improvising using chord tones and improvising around the melody. Those are two valuable entry
points" -Pat Methey
I point out the pitfalls in my version of CST and especially in my live lessons/classes. I also know that any tool in the wrong hands (or hands that don't fully grasp the Gestalt yet) is not going to create something of high aesthetic value (besides chance).
From my book:
The big idea to me is the tonal hierarchy: The basic cord tones are there and the scales are the bigger picture from which other connectors/extensions can be logically derived. If students can't "see" or "hear" it, then, yes, their playing will suffer and they will have to learn more patterns and theory.It is a common pitfall for students of chord-scale equivalency theories to give every note within a chord-scale equal treatment (this has caused some controversy regarding “chord-scale theory” in certain circles). There is a tonal hierarchy that must be recognized. The core triad needs to be thought of as the lower structure, the seventh (what I think of as the “gateway tone”), and the other chord tones as “upper-structures” or “extensions”. Every note besides the core triad may be treated as a “tendency tone” (meaning a tone that is unstable and naturally tends to resolve either upward or downward to a more stable tone) depending on the immediate context. “Avoid” notes or “handle with care” notes are the most unstable tones within each chord-scale. Tonal hierarchies within each chord-scale can fluctuate depending on the harmonic conditions of the music at hand. Use your ear to determine the level of complexity that is appropriate.
And let's not forget the biggest factors: RHYTHM and PHRASING. At this point, that's about all I think about in my own playing...
Last edited by JonnyPac; 05-12-2012 at 09:00 PM.
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