Improvising over a Jazz Blues

[christianm77]

Edited version

[docdosco]

Blues is the source from which springs 'jazz' for me. I think it is for a lot of other players too. It can be the bridge opens doors and shines a light on some of the arcane musical concepts that are not overly difficult to grasp, just tricky for developing players that are overwhelmed by the do's and don't, the incredible amount of rote learning that is seemingly required and a rule book might not make much sense to those not potty trained in the jazz idiom from the git go.

A rock, acoustic, or funky player that doesn't know the jazz/standard tunes or care to become Ph.D in theory can still make beautiful music in jazz using the blues and some basic concepts (which Christian has taken the time to outline in his handout)

So gents, please keep this thread lively with questions, answers, clips, quips, insights and comments, and share how YOU (the jazz guitar forum denizen) perceive blues in the music you make and how you think it is reflected in the jazz we all know and love. Then perhaps we can all listen and learn from each other.

Again, forgive my verbosity....

[wzpgsr]

I have a lot of trouble feeling my way through jazz blues. Growing up, a lot of my playing was basically minor pentatonics over simple blues or blues-based chord progressions. I used to do a lot of long, slow Albert King style bends that would last half a bar or more. Not saying I couldn't still do that in jazz, but, you know, I'm trying to play traditional 50s and 60s jazz. Now I am learning to play changes, and instead of rapid (and basically random) bursts of notes in and around the pentatonic shape, what I play now actually has to relate to the underlying harmony at a deeper level.


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[docdosco]

I have a lot of trouble feeling my way through jazz blues. Growing up, a lot of my playing was basically minor pentatonics over simple blues or blues-based chord progressions. I used to do a lot of long, slow Albert King style bends that would last half a bar or more. Not saying I couldn't still do that in jazz, but, you know, I'm trying to play traditional 50s and 60s jazz. Now I am learning to play changes, and instead of rapid (and basically random) bursts of notes in and around the pentatonic shape, what I play now actually has to relate to the underlying harmony at a deeper level.


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Let me take a stab at one approach. If you are doing it already, just disregard my post. Once I get on a soapbox, I go on and on.

There is one concept of playing over changes with melodic shapes that indicate the underlying changes using chord tones/arpeggios (which means that when you take out the accompanyment, you can still hear the changes to the tune)

Joe Pass was the master at this and you can almost always determine the changes by his ability to play enough of the chords notes highlighting the important tones and connecting them flawlessly with tension and release (the magic of targeting thirds and sevenths) ....through the structure of the tune, culminating in turnarounds of various types that lead the melody to either a second A section, a bridge or back to the starting gate.

Some tunes follow different form, but there are a finite number of song forms, and a finite number of places that chords might go, and a finite number of types of turnarounds.

It is tricky to get a flow going but there are melodic devices that you can employ over and over, song to song. Most all standards follow certain types of song form and the changes repeat similar ways for many tunes. I know you are aware of this, however getting a set of usable phrases that can be plugged into any tune at any time gave me a foundation to expand from. The trap to avoid is just memorizing a particular line and then never being able to recall and utilize it wherever you might wish when improvising different tunes.

Jazz blues is particularly suited for playing in the Albert King fashion (only with jazz phrasing) of playing blues riffs, licks or runs to create a solo or following the changes a la Joe Pass. Joe Pass used blues scale elements in his phrasing for not just blues tunes, but in many other tunes. He always let you hear the underlying chord structure of the tune, regardless.

To get this method of playing down, you can begin by playing eighth notes consecutively and weaving through the changes concentrating on chord tones. Look for the guide tones (3 and 7) and hit them when you can. Easier said than done, I might add.

Mimi Fox has a great little book that concentrates on only playing arpeggios thoughout half a dozen standards. If you just string together the chord tones, you will never play notes that don't fit. It may not be all that exciting to just hammer out arpeggios, but from there, you begin to connect them. This is where the magic begins. Scales have a place, but relying on scales to define the changes ain't gonna happen, or at least it didn't for me.

I used to to be a scale guy from my rock, funk days but I could never manipulate them properly to sound like Wes, Joe Pass or any of the cool straight ahead guys. I began looking at the chord tones and how to connect them and my playing opened up. I still rip scales from time to time, but within a context of knowing what the chord tones whether, major, minor, 7th, minor 7b5, augment and diminished... With all the appropriate extensions. I don't know all this stuff cold in every position, but enough to be able to move around the fretboard without having a train wreck.

Damn.... This is a whole sermon.

Anyway, I hope it makes sense.

[christianm77]

I must point out that the blues scale (with the b5) is a great choice for IV7 and #ivo7. It also works very well over the related bVI7 chord. On any tune.

Also any of #ivo7 dim friends of course. io7 and biiio7 are biggies.

[mr. beaumont]

This thread just reminded me of the "blues" section at the end of "chord chemistry."

For anyone unfamiliar, he starts with a simple three chord blues and then keeps adding subs, passing chords, etc...

The beauty of course is, when you realize it's not just about juicing up the chords, teally, and that implying many of those subs in your lead line over a simpler backing can sounderstand really hip.

Great thread, doc.

[MarkRhodes]

Mimi Fox has a great little book that concentrates on only playing arpeggios thoughout half a dozen standards. If you just string together the chord tones, you will never play notes that don't fit. It may not be all that exciting to just hammer out arpeggios, but from there, you begin to connect them. This is where the magic begins. Scales have a place, but relying on scales to define the changes ain't gonna happen, or at least it didn't for me.

Whole post is good stuff. Just wanted to mention here that the Mimi Fox book is "Guitar Arpeggio Studies on Jazz Standards", put out by Mel Bay. The standard changes Mimi uses are "Summertime," "Night and Day", All the Things You Are" and "Autumn Leaves." "Summertime" is in G minor, an unusual choice of key (in my experience.) That's the first and most basic study and I'm thinking she chose G minor so the student will be playing mainly between the 3rd and 6th frets, which is comfortable for everyone, pretty much. (The "Autumn Leaves" is in Bb/Gm, the same same key Sheryl Bailey uses and the one Jamey Aebersold's "Maiden Voyage" play-along uses. Frank Vignola and Robert Conti use G/Em, the other common key for the tune.)

Mimi studied with Joe Pass and although she doesn't use the term CAGED, her "grips" will be familiar to anyone who has worked with that approach.

Guitar Arpeggio Studies on Jazz Standards (Mel Bays Private Lessons): Mimi Fox: 9780786687718: Amazon.com: Books

[ragman1]

Thought so... Fiddle as well, eh? One of those pains in the ass then :-)

No, I thought he looked familiar. They used to have a swing combo in Brighton that did gigs all over the place and busked in East Street. It's possible he played with them now and again. They were good players too. Jo Hunter on trumpet played with all the big bands in his day. Here he is (although not all the players are here on this one):

Dave Holdsworth used to join in occasionally and Rachel Bundy was the excellent vocalist before she went off to have babies:

http://www.rockininrhythm.co.uk/Trac...-674KB-57s.mp3

[docdosco]

Preach.
Funnily enough, I would now describe myself as a scale based improvisor (not CST necessarily). But I had to go through the chord tones thing first.

Scales have their place, and I do 16th note runs a la Pat Martino (I spent a good long time with Pat in Transcribe!). There my playing is more scale based, as are really uptempo 8th notes bopish stuff too. I am big on chomatics also in certain spots. I use the half dim scale, (half whole half whole and the reverse, whole half whole half) the whole tone, altered dominant of different flavors etc. Conceptually, I still keep several things in mind, the chord tones and the key center and where is the nearest II V cadence is to slam home the resolution.

Tension and release, after all.

Also, blues scale, pentatonic, 4ths, harm minor, melodic minor and I may toss in a Byzantine scale from time to time.

It becomes semantics after a while. An accomplished player has a tool box of all this stuff and utilizes the approaprite sonic tool for the job depending on style, tempo, whether they had their morning coffee (Reminder, a post of unusual or ethnic scales would be cool)

Then comes in the aspect of rhythmic variables, etc. but that's for another post too.

So.... (huff puff) the chord tones are my primary guide as they spell out the harmony at that point in time in jazz/standards. The key center is the moving center. The coffee helps me resolve my lines and open myself to the muse (who likes coffee too) Haha

I may not rely on chord/tones as a style all the time, but I do see them under whatever set of notes I am using. Sort of like Superman's X-ray vision of tones, trying to see the fretboard in it's underwear....

[wzpgsr]

Here's a question/some thoughts about ii-V7s in blues. I hear a lot of folks talking about how they think about playing ii-V7s as just V7. I've been transcribing Charlie Parker's solo from the Now's the Time version on The Complete Savoy and Dial Master Takes. Now's the Time uses Am7-D7 to get to the Gm-C7, but when I played dominant D7 lines over, something wasn't sounding right. In one of the choruses, Bird seems to be outlining a Dm9 arpeggio, which indicates he's thinking of this Am-D7 not as a D7, but as either F major (I) or vi (Dm), not D7. If I were to choose a chord tone approach over the Am-D7, but think about it as just D7, there is no F. The third of D7 is F#. At the same time I've working on my chord tone stuff, I've also been digesting some of Barry Harris's ideas. He recommends playing F maj up to the maj 7, then down to the third of D7, which is F#. My ear tells me that F major is the way to go, but I am wondering just why the D7 approach doesn't seem to work too well since a lot of folks recommend thinking of ii-V7 as just V7. Is it because, in an F blues, Am-D7 isn't really a ii-V7 to Gm, but a iii-vi with a sub to the VI7? How do I reconcile all this?

[ragman1]

Am7-D7 to get to the Gm-C7, but when I played dominant D7 lines over, something wasn't sounding right.

No, it won't. Am over D7's okay but not quite the other way about.

F over D7 is like a Dm pentatonic, i.e. a bluesy sound, right?

a lot of folks recommend thinking of ii-V7 as just V.

Easier to remember... but then you can improvise the other stuff over it, especially the ii.

Is it because, in an F blues, Am-D7 isn't really a ii-V7 to Gm, but a iii-vi with a sub to the VI7? How do I reconcile all this?

D7 is the V of Gm but then, as you say, the Am becomes a bit redundant. I mean, most blues go from the F7 to the D7 rather than subbing the F with Am. (Of course if you play a Bo after the Bb7 then Am after that is all wrong).

I wouldn't use it at all personally. If I did, it would have to be Am7b5, which isn't the best blues sound.

(unless the Am/D7 was part of a whole backtrack cycle of 2-5s. Maybe).

[docdosco]

No, it won't. Am over D7's okay but not quite the other way about.

F over D7 is like a Dm pentatonic, i.e. a bluesy sound, right?



Easier to remember... but then you can improvise the other stuff over it, especially the ii.



D7 is the V of Gm but then, as you say, the Am becomes a bit redundant. I mean, most blues go from the F7 to the D7 rather than subbing the F with Am. (Of course if you play a Bo after the Bb7 then Am after that is all wrong).

I wouldn't use it at all personally. If I did, it would have to be Am7b5, which isn't the best blues sound.

(unless the Am/D7 was part of a whole backtrack cycle of 2-5s. Maybe).

Bingo!, ragman. Back cycling it is.

I just woke up and my brain doesn't work, but let me babble.

The Am7 becomes an Am7b5, to D7b9 to Gm7 It is a a minor II V I into Gm the temporary tonic. and when you hit Gm7, it is no longer a I, but becomes the Gm7 II (then C7 is the V ) of F. It morfs from a minor II V with a temp I to Gm), to a major II V I a whole step down into F.

The scale, associated with Gm7 in he first II V would be a natural minor (some play a harmonic minor too), as in a IIm7b5 to V b9 to I, but that tonic scale on Gm7 the moment you land on it immediately becomes the dorian, or II major with the #6th and not a b6 (then continue to V mixo ....or better yet C7 with altered notes in places) of F . You could play altered dominant a over the III VI II V a whole tone apart


Am (7b5) to D7 *D7 altered dom* Gm (7b5) to C7 *C7 altered dom* the altered dominant type of scale is a scale has accidentals - #5, #9, b5 b9 (altered intervals) in different orders. There are several scales of this type. Harmonic minors fit also in the right spots. (I have an anecdote about this with Joe Diorio)

Some folks see this as a melodic minor scale. It can be that also, but to me, if playing off the chord tones, based on the name of the chord in the tune you are on, it is a scale heavy with altered notes indicated from the harmony of the key and chord, and not a diatonic mode from elsewhere superimposed on a IIm7b5 to V....... Both ways work, just the approach to the names is different.

Excuse any mistakes as I am not quite awake still yet.

WHERE'S MY COFFEE?

Here is an example of the difference. More to come when I come out of my morning trance....

D mixolydian scale

D altered scale

Get beyond the shortcut to the altered scale To find the appropriate notes for an altered scale, simply go up a half step from the root of the chord and play the ascending form of the melodic minor scale (a major scale with a flatted third). So, on G7, you would play Ab melodic minor starting on G, and voila, you’re playing G altered. I call this a shortcut for a reason. Because it is! Gradually, get beyond it…by knowing the scale as it’s own entity.

[christianm77]

I think it's because the chords are more like Am7b5 D7b5. I assume you mean bar 8? I would always use F down to the third of D7 here for bop lines, which is the Barry way of playing a minor ii-v.

D dominant is too bright imo

[christianm77]

I see a few different types of cadence (see my off ;-)) but the main three are (for me)

Vanilla -- say G7 to C or G13 to C
Minor -- say Bb7 to C (with the third of G7) or G7b9 to C
Altered or Tritone --- say Db7 to C or G7alt to C

Now, you are free to use mixolydian/dominant for all of these - so you can use Bmaj7 for instance on G7alt which is fun... Or melodic minor modes of you prefer.

Anyway the minor ii V is often conflated with altered ii v on the books, but it seems from the bop era stuff I have looked at that it is a separate thing. Modally you could see it as a playing mode V of the harmonic and natural minor over the V7b9 chord.

This is closely linked to diminished symmetry and the diminished scale.

[wzpgsr]

Lots to digest here, but thanks fellas, you've put me on the right track. I was able to come up with some decent sounding stuff by enclosing the F major triad and throwing the F# in over the D7. Those chromatic enclosures I was asking about in another thread seem to support the altered sound over measures 8-10 in Now's the Time changes without really having to think "now I am going to play an altered scale".

[gggomez]

Here is the Robben Ford video

Main message "You gotta feel the energy and the pulse" then "the notes do not matter you can play anything". "It is like surfing the wave is the energy you gotta feel it".

I certainly have found the energy and pulse a massive thing in my learning. Having transcribed Grant Greens Greens Greenery and Sweet Alice Blues George Benson I find I can do what Robben says, switch off from what to play and focus on the rhythm and energy. The result is a far more listenable story.

[gggomez]

I was given a tip to not play the route in a line over the v. Play any 11 notes but not the route so as to build tension and resolve in the next bar.

[christianm77]

I was given a tip to not play the route in a line over the v. Play any 11 notes but not the route so as to build tension and resolve in the next bar.

Yeah I kind of feel the same. Over a G7 I would spell Bm7b5, Dm7 and Fmaj7 or Dm9 or whatever...G's are kind of boring.

In bop lines I would suggest that when the full close is used on a major or minor chord (a melodic cadence to 1 such as 5 6 1 or 5 7 1) it tends to be a 'full stop' used at the end of a larger musical thought.

[MarkRhodes]

Here's a short bit from Frank Vignola talking about a simple, bluesy, and melodic approach to improvising on the blues and rhythm changes.

In that excerpt from a longer video (which I have not seen) Frank mentions how Lester Young played simple blues phrases over rhythm changes and it sounded so good. This is perhaps the most famous example of that.

[ragman1]

Also this. It's a bit messy but...

[docdosco]

Lots to digest here, but thanks fellas, you've put me on the right track. I was able to come up with some decent sounding stuff by enclosing the F major triad and throwing the F# in over the D7. Those chromatic enclosures I was asking about in another thread seem to support the altered sound over measures 8-10 in Now's the Time changes without really having to think "now I am going to play an altered scale".

I VI II V .... Fmaj7 D7 Gm7 C7?

If you don't use the following it is very handy (if so, disregard)

For the D7, play the b9 on the bottom of chord shape. D# F# A C D#, resolving down a half step to D. It is the old trick of playing the 7th as a diminished arpeggio up a half step. It gives you a natural resolution to the II when incorporated on the D7 and likewise in the F when used over the C7.

As an exercise, you can play the Fmaj7 arp, the D7b9 - b9 on the bottom (also a D#dim arp) Gm7 arp and C7b9 - b9 note on the bottom (also a C#dim) arp.

No tempo, single notes:

F A C E F
D# F# A C D#
G Bb D F G (or A instead of the G on top)
C# E G Bb C#...... or E G Bb C# E

End on Fmaj 7th


The magic comes connecting these anchor tones and targeting the 3rds and 7th (and b9 of dom chords). All of the great jazz bop and straight ahead guys, regardless of instrument, incorporate this use of targeting 3rds and 7ths in one form or another.

The altered scale is fine, but the chord tones are the rock to build off of. A diatonic type scale, after all, is just the intervals of chord tones with the appropriate 'in between' notes included. It doesn't lessen the practice of playing 'scales' for melodies, it simply is another way to look at how chord tones functions within scale, or rather, how a scale is the extension of chord tones.

Hope it makes sense. ???

[docdosco]

I was given a tip to not play the route in a line over the v. Play any 11 notes but not the route so as to build tension and resolve in the next bar.

The root is not necessary sometimes and as I just posted, the b9 on the bottom is useful on a V, or any dominant resolving to a I.

There are, of course, other chord tones and extensions that work too.

[ragman1]

D# F# A C D#

Same as a diminished arpeggio.

[docdosco]

Same as a diminished arpeggio.

ragman1,

Yep. Both the diminished arp, and the altered dom, and the dim scale (starting on the V tonic note and going half whole half whole etc) are cool to play over V. (I am cloudy on some of the other labels for these things though sometimes) Along with the melodic minor sub and the harmonic minor of the tonic key etc. etc I'll see if I can find written examples. I am firing up the new camera soon so I'll post examples.

I am fuzzy on some names and aspects of use, as I had no real formal schooling to speak of and my aged brain is a sieve. I use things without labeling them oft times, and I have to stop and calculate what to call it. I could use a brush up myself.

I noticed this yesterday. Good info:

Altered Scale | jazzadvice.com

[christianm77]

Actually you can use a melodic minor over a G13b9 but not G alt (Ab mel), as they say. D mel goes over G13b9. Same notes as G lyd dom.

Actually you can also use C harmonic over G13b9 - which is quite interesting in a major 2-5-1.

notalottapeopleknowthat

They don't do they? And yet this is the simplest origin of the chord - minor dominant harmony with a major third of the key in the melody. Or b6 against a 3.

This sometimes gets termed the Harmonic Major.

1 2 3 4 5 b6 7 1

Although I don't hear this scale melodically in bop- usually 7 is flatted as well.

Now a modern, cst oriented player like Kreisberg would play the extensions of the chords 'correctly' as much as possible. What that means is that the original melody is incorporated in some way into vertical harmony and then that harmony is turned into a seven note scale. So harmonic major on a IVm(maj7) or V13b9.

Interestingly in bebop changes playing, we don't give a **** about the melody. Bop is very basic harmony oriented in that way, minor, major, dominant, and pretty lax about things like b3s on V7 chords and so on.

In any case I don't consciously employ harmonic major much in my playing as I don't like the way it sounds for melodies. As a theoretical construct it's pretty irrelevant to me, although I certainly use a lot of what you might call harmonic major harmony in my chordal playing. I like those sounds.

In general when soloing traditionally on changes, I use what I talk about in the handout.... Possibly iv melodic minor:

1 2 3 4 5 b6 b7

This tetrachord (four note scale) is extremely common in bebop lines.

5 b6 b7 7

You could see this as belonging to a number of scales including the V altered, but in fact you can get it using Backdoor dominant with an optional raised 1 (see handout.) this scale does not parent a G13b9

So I would go as far to say that 13b9 is kind of a diminished scale thing in bop.... (Long way round to that conclusion I know!)

Anyway, in swing, we do care more about melody. This type of chord sound has been in use since the 30s at least, usually in the form dim7(b13) which is an inversion of the 13b9. Listen to Manoir des Mes Reves by Django, in which this chord resolves to major, and check out how he solos on that chord.