prelude to a kiss

**luigi scatto** · 12-01-2010, 05:57 PM

anyone can help me to analyse prelude to a kiss and find out the best scales/arpeggios to improvise? I find it pretty difficult... as usual (for me) to improvise against alterd cord such as G7+ etcetera and there are quie a lot of changes....
L.

**FatJeff** · 12-02-2010, 12:24 AM

Can someone help this jazzer out? I am not familiar with this song.

**Tbirdjazzguitar** · 12-02-2010, 10:46 AM

Well. because i think in terms of chord tones, When you see a g7+ you can play, R, 3rd, #5, b7. If its resolving to its tonic, which would be Cmaj or Cmin most likely, you can play the #9 and b9.

**FatJeff** · 12-02-2010, 11:19 AM

**luigi scatto** · 12-02-2010, 12:48 PM

yeah I know it is a difficult one. I love this song , the melody and the atmosphere. Anyway it is not my first tackle. I studied about 50 standars until now and I must say that I never have so many difficulties in impro as this one... yesterday night I was so frustrated that I left it aside... to many chord changes... I beleive that staying in the key of C and modulating in Emaj and back to C is just a starting point...
it might be interesting to find a solo on it... if anybody can advise. thanx a lot for ur suggestions , i will try tonight to go trough your explanations
l.

**FatJeff** · 12-02-2010, 01:05 PM

OK, so you're probably about at the same level as I am with this analysis stuff.

I have no idea how I'd approach improv on this. Probably outlining the changes with arpeggios and some guide tones. I'm sure others might advocate chord-scale, but that is still a weak spot in my playing.

**P4guitar** · 12-02-2010, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by FatJeff

OK, so you're probably about at the same level as I am with this analysis stuff.

I have no idea how I'd approach improv on this. Probably outlining the changes with arpeggios and some guide tones. I'm sure others might advocate chord-scale, but that is still a weak spot in my playing.

Tunes like this are good examples of where the chord-scale approach works so well and why, at least in my opinion, the key center approach is insufficient. The changes go by slowly giving one plenty of time to work things out.

Most of the tune can be played with modes of the major scale. Mixylodian for the V7, major for the maj7's, dorian for most of the minors, etc. Try it.

Another advantage of the chord-scale approach is all the analysis becomes unnecessary, especially since it doesn't work anyway.

**luigi scatto** · 12-02-2010, 06:52 PM

i agree that the key center approach is insufficient... but even the chord scale is not easy whenever you have altered chords as in this case. I honestly think that this tune is too advanced for me unles somedy suggest me a way to make things simple.... I will try the modes but still I beleive it will not give the taste of the song as it was made by Duke... Thanx anyway being new in this forum is already a pleasure to talk to cats who speak the same language than me ...

**randalljazz** · 12-02-2010, 07:09 PM

work out the guide tone lines and learn those. the A section is mostly secondary dominants, and g.t. lines are effective basis for improv.

the bridge is six ms of E (plain old turnaround), then backcycle to transition (with chromatic passing chords).

**gersdal** · 12-02-2010, 07:11 PM

There's a few well known progressions in this tune, and some difficult ones. The 3 types you find in the tune (with variations) is:
- Dominant 7ths around the cycle
- ii-V-I
- Plain old turnaround

Originally Posted by gersdal likes to explain ;)

The Dominant 7ths around the cycle is something we all should practice like ii-V-I's. An example of Dominant 7ths around the cycle is E7 - A7 - D7 - G. E.g. see Clint Strongs video on improvising over Dominant 7ths around the cycle.

There's hundreds of books on how to improvise over ii-V-I's

Plain old turnarounds would be something like EMaj7 - C#m7 - F#m7 - B7. A lot of jazz players (e.g. Joe Pass) ignores the relative minor of the Imaj7 chord and regard this as another (I) - ii-V-I.

Prelude to a kiss starts off with two Dominant 7ths around the cycle.

First:
| D7 G7 | C7 FMaj7 |

Then:
| B7 E7 | A7 Dm7 |

The second one ending on a minor chord is somewhat different than the normal version, but I guess that's not too difficult.

Then there is a ii-V-I type of thing with a D7#11 that follows.
| Dm7 G7 | Am7 D7#11 |

The Am7 is just a sub for the Cmaj7.

And then there is another ii-V-I, this time with a VI7 that sets up the next D7

| Dm7 G7 | CMaj7 A7 |

The second verse ends with a ii-V to set up the Emaj7 in the bridge.

The bridge as it is written in this thread is just 3 plain old turnarounds.

| EMaj7 C#m7 | F#m7b5 B7 |

The second turnaround is sometimes written different, and is here a F#m7 without the b5, but again that is not too difficult to deal with.

And then there is a chromatic thing that I do not know any way of dealing with other than to use chord tones.

Finally it is the A part again.

That is how I would approach the tune. Hope that is helpful.

G

**gersdal** · 12-02-2010, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by randalljazz

work out the guide tone lines and learn those. the A section is mostly secondary dominants, and g.t. lines are effective basis for improv.

the bridge is six ms of E (plain old turnaround), then backcycle to transition (with chromatic passing chords).

Ahh. You beet me to it

, with a much shorter version

.

Cheers

**randalljazz** · 12-02-2010, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by gersdal

Ahh. You beet me to it

, with a much shorter version

.

Cheers

but yours is much more comprehensive!

cheers, gh.

**luigi scatto** · 12-02-2010, 07:30 PM

i have to work for at least one month and then the rest of my life.... thank you folks...

**luigi scatto** · 12-02-2010, 07:37 PM

i apologize for my ignorance what's g.t. lines?
g

**P4guitar** · 12-02-2010, 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by luigi scatto

i apologize for my ignorance what's g.t. lines?
g

g.t. lines = guide tone lines

But to all, I don't understand the need to complicate the issue. One can approach this tune and any others by simply fitting a scale along with the appropriate guide tones to the chord of the moment and use this approach through the entire tune. It works for Prelude and Giant Steps, no difference. Why make it hard?

**luigi scatto** · 12-02-2010, 10:21 PM

guide tones are not those which give too much spice to your impro... if you have let's say a G+ and you play only t 3 5 7b and not all the notes that you can use (for instance 5+, 5b, 9b and 9+) you deprive yourself of many colorful possibilities... this is the way i see it but i might be wrong... thanx

**P4guitar** · 12-02-2010, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by luigi scatto

guide tones are not those which give too much spice to your impro... if you have let's say a G+ and you play only t 3 5 7b and not all the notes that you can use (for instance 5+, 5b, 9b and 9+) you deprive yourself of many colorful possibilities... this is the way i see it but i might be wrong... thanx

You're right.

However I did not say use only guide tones. I said to use scales and guide tones. Scales provide the color you're looking for.

**luigi scatto** · 12-03-2010, 12:26 AM

ok very cllear but sill this tune is difficult... i will work on the material you sent me and let u know the results...
thank you
g

**gersdal** · 12-03-2010, 07:39 AM

Originally Posted by 4thstuning

gBut to all, I don't understand the need to complicate the issue. One can approach this tune and any others by simply fitting a scale along with the appropriate guide tones to the chord of the moment and use this approach through the entire tune. It works for Prelude and Giant Steps, no difference. Why make it hard?

I guess "difficult" is up to the individual. For me it is not necessarily difficult playing a song with only 3 building blocks.

Figuring out what changes I should do to the scales depending on the chords that fly by is however difficult for me. I guess I would go for a Cmaj scale in the beginning. For the D7 I'd throw in a F# ... and the I would be ok untill the B7. On the bandstand I would trash the whole idea there and then. However, if you can explain how you can make this more simple than playing over 3 standard building blocks, I'm all ears

**luigi scatto** · 12-03-2010, 08:59 AM

I can't. .... As a general obeservation hoewever I must say that I see analysis as a tool to play by ear , as a starting point , playing by ear is my goal on the long term, so let's start to play and see what's happen. Thank you so much.
g

**P4guitar** · 12-03-2010, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by gersdal

I guess "difficult" is up to the individual. For me it is not necessarily difficult playing a song with only 3 building blocks.

Figuring out what changes I should do to the scales depending on the chords that fly by is however difficult for me. I guess I would go for a Cmaj scale in the beginning. For the D7 I'd throw in a F# ... and the I would be ok untill the B7. On the bandstand I would trash the whole idea there and then. However, if you can explain how you can make this more simple than playing over 3 standard building blocks, I'm all ears

You're right, it is an individual preference. But what people think is hard in the short term is often more difficult in the long term.

For me easiest system for the long term is playing the chord scales so I don't have to analyze tunes. I simply play the chord scale with emphasis on the GT's and any appropriate alterations.

For example in Prelude... I would be thinking and playing:
D7: altered scale with b9, b5
G7: same but could use b6 or nat 6 ...or Ab mel min over Db7...or etc.
C7: same but could use b6 or nat 6 ...or Gb mel min over Db7...or etc.
FMaj7: maj or lydian...or etc.

...and I would use this stratagem all the way through the tune. It does not prevent me from using a single scale, say F maj and then add some notes that acknowledge the D, G, or C chords but I don't really like that sound so I don't do it (a personal preference or taste).

Actually I don't like the key center approach because solos based on it almost always seem to have bad notes in them...and there's a reason for that. A key center approach is using a key that's inappropriate for the underlying chord. Trying to superimpose the underlying chord's GT notes in a foreign scale seems very difficult to me.

Consider this hypothetical: you're playing with your guitar (no other instrument or recordings) and you can only play single lines, but not the melody (head). Does your approach allow another listener to follow the harmonic changes, i.e. do your rules outline the chords in your solo?

At first it seems hard to use a chord scale w/GT system but then with practice it becomes very easy. Here's the important point, it becomes just as easy as playing the chord.

**luigi scatto** · 12-03-2010, 04:44 PM

Interesting approach... it gives me the opprtunity to raise another question... ever since I start playing jazz (let's say 7 years) I have been trying so many approaches for improvising... (arpeggios, pentatonic, scales, modes and so on...) with the result that I never went deep inside one system... what is your opinion? again I think that the goal is to go beyond all these rules and playing what you hear (but before you have to learn what you hear lol....) anyway I love jazz so much and I am often thinking of my playing as a bit louzy....

**luigi scatto** · 12-03-2010, 04:45 PM

in short and to quote 'I can get no satisfaction"... or not as much as I would like to, to be precise...

**P4guitar** · 12-03-2010, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by luigi scatto

Interesting approach... it gives me the opprtunity to raise another question... ever since I start playing jazz (let's say 7 years) I have been trying so many approaches for improvising... (arpeggios, pentatonic, scales, modes and so on...) with the result that I never went deep inside one system... what is your opinion? again I think that the goal is to go beyond all these rules and playing what you hear (but before you have to learn what you hear lol....) anyway I love jazz so much and I am often thinking of my playing as a bit louzy....

My opinion is stated in the post above yours.

This is how I did it. I started to learn this approach just on ii-V-I sequences. I started with a dorian over the ii, a mixolydian over the V, and major over the I. I emphasized the chord/guide tones so the underlying chord could be heard in the solo. Later I added the substitutions with melodic minor and altered scales. Once I was comfortable with that I put those sequences together to have an entire song.

**luigi scatto** · 12-04-2010, 12:44 PM

i tried ur ideas, it takes time of course but is working parfectly. when u work on arpeggios you stay in the same position or u move around? i say that coiz sometimes in the same position arpeggios are not so confortable...and the idea of playing one b9 or 5+ etcetera gives the flavor of the song. thanx a lot
g